Through the Chaos

Jumping up and down, spinning around, mass tongues, waving flags and even stage diving. These are things that anyone that has ever attended an NCMI relating church (or most NCMI relating churches) would have seen.
I loved it and saw it as a church that had found freedom in religion. These people, I thought where so hyped for God and where doing Him some great service by performing these theatrics.
Every service I would eagerly head to church excited to experience this freedom. I would hear people speak in tongues, I would hear prophecy, and I would hear what I thought to be God speaking into my own heart.
It was only later on when I started having conflict with some of the elders that the scales fell off my eyes. I started to see how everything that was happening was nothing more than experience and had very little, if not nothing to do with the bible. I was given a book called Occult ABC written by Kurt E. Koch and was shocked to see that he dealt with tongues as being of the occult. I mean how could he? My world view was totally rocked. How could a Christian say that something that I believed to be a normal Christian thing is part of the occult?
It was enough for me to start questioning, searching and enquiring. I did this at the church and via correspondence on the internet. Every time I asked a question they either ignored me or rebuked me. There was never a spirit of understanding to my concerns. This was coupled with the elders at church getting into conflict with my wife and me over a ministry that she used to run. I was also told that I believed in heretical doctrine because I was inclined to Calvinism.
After some time and much soul searching I left. I had to; I would not have felt right if I did not.
After I left I had to deal with an internal crisis. I was unsure if I was correct to have left. I am not closed minded and I knew that there was very likely a possibility that I was to blame for the fallout. It was then that I started bumping into people that where going through, or had gone through the same as me. There was not just a few, but many.
I am at peace now knowing that the choice that I made was correct. It was the only choice that I could have made. I am also comfortable that my choice to start this blog and the support forum for people that have left NCMI was also correct. I still battle, but am taking this journey one step at a time. I am finally whole.

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79 comments

  1. I am glad you are finally whole coz it is a scary process and it is a journey of one step at a time.. Today the xpastor’s wife sms’d me.. ‘thinking of u today, hope you are well…’ I cringe because I don’t know what to send back to her. Do I say, I am fine apart from not hearing from anyone for four months and finally getting an sms.. I am fine considering that I have gone through the trauma of undoing the false teaching.. I am fine that I have come out of the chaos! I am well because my eyes are now open to your lies… what?

    it’s a difficult thing to come out of but over time there is healing! Blogging has helped me big time to express my journey, find those who relate and I have a daily online connection with other believers who have had the same struggles.

    I am glad I have come into contact with people like yourself that has opened the doors for a support structure, goodness knows that people need support through it!

  2. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things that seem slightly inconsistent in your article.

    You speak of experience being a negative thing i.e. the experience had very little to do with the bible. I completely agree that experience does not validate any given action in the context of doctrine. Scripture is the sole authority for us who believe when attempting to come to terms with issues of doctrine. Tongues are a biblical phenomena – yet you have not addressed this at all. You quote Mr. Koch, a cessationist, as labeling the pentecostal interpretation of tongues as occultic, and seem to take his word as doctrine. What about God’s Word?

    I can understand that you were upset about not getting straight answers from your pastor/s. But has that really caused you so much offense to walk away from enjoying the freedom that comes through Christ in us (as you said you did in the past)? I don’t hardly ever jump around in worship because that’s not the way God’s wired me to express my worship (rather it comes through reading his word, prayer and in particular the enjoyment of his natural creation).

    David danced before the Lord. The Psalms exhort us to worship him with, among other things, the crashing of cymbals. Have you ever thought about that? How, exactly, does hitting a piece of metal honour God Most High? To suggest that such expressions of worship have ‘very little, if not nothing to do with the bible’ would be very difficult to uphold if were thorough in your study. It seems to me that you’re grasping at straws to justify your own offense (which may be completely valid, if not Christlike), rather than going to the Lord and asking Him to help you grapple with the issues you’re going through with your ex-church’s Eldership. I pray that you find peace in your heart and in your mind. I also hope you do a little more biblical study before bringing a flawed argument to lost sheep that are looking for answers.

  3. Hi Sam,

    Thanks for your comments. You say that I speak of experience as a negative thing. I don’t believe that I do this. Experience cannot nullify the word of scripture. I value personal experience, I am human after all, but I don’t need an experience from God to have faith in Him. If I did I would be like doubting Tomas, would I not?
    I also never quoted Mr. Koch. I would not do that because I believe many of his examples on tongues to be extreme. I do agree with him though that in some cases tongues can be demonic in nature.
    I don’t quite know why you think it is wrong for me to quote Koch because he a Cessationist. I am a Cessationist; there is nothing biblically wrong with my belief in this regard.
    You mention that I have taken such great offence to what I experienced in NCMI that I have walked away from the freedom that I enjoyed in the church. This is not true. I have walked away from a self-cantered form of religion to a God-cantered one. I have in essence stopped being a buddy of the Lords and have become a slave to Him. This is my hope at least.
    You mention that David danced before the Lord. That is an Old Testament example. Have you got a New Testament example?
    I ask this not to be picky, but did Jesus and the disciple ever dance in worship of God?
    No they did not. This is because Jesus spoke of a change of worship from physical to spiritual.
    A time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:21-24).
    In the OT everything was physical. There was the arch of the covenant, the tent, the temple, incense, burnt offering, rituals, and sprickling of blood. Jesus did away with this and we now only have to worship the Lord in spirit and truth.
    Above I asked if Jesus and the disciple ever dance in worship of God. Why did I ask this? I asked this because Colossians 3:17 says that all things are to be done in the name of, that is, by the authority of Jesus Christ. Jesus never gave us a New Covenant example, or never ever encouraged dance worship.
    In fact there is no New Testament command that mentions dancing in worship. It does however mention what is supposed to take place in a service. The church gathered to partake of the Lord’s Supper (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 11:18ff), to pray (Acts 2:42ff; 4:23ff); sing (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16); hear the word proclaimed (Colossians 4:16); and give as they had been prospered (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

    On a closing note, do you attend an NCMI church?

  4. Hi Concerned,

    From the bottom up, yes I do attend an NCMI church. As I’ve stated elsewhere on this page, I believe the issues that you and others are pointing out on this website are not NCMI specific – I attend a local church that relates to NCMI, where I have the freedom to have Calvinistic tendencies, don’t necessarily jump around in worship and rarely speak in tongues (unless the Spirit prompts me to – not the pastor). The reason that I attend this church is because I have faith in the Gifts of the Spirit, which in our case are well administered by the leadership.

    Thanks for your biblical interpretation of worship. Personally, I see that the veil between man and God has been torn through the Incarnation, life, ministry, death, Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ. We now have a way to the Father – the same Father that demanded the shedding of blood in the OT. He is the same God. We know that God never changes (James 1:17 etc) and nor does His Word (Isaiah 40:8). It is a different contract of relationship, so to speak, yet the same Father remains.

    Jesus’ comments in John 4 give no indication that they are negating dancing or singing or shouting or praising or extolling through physical expressions. We know that the Law is now weak and useless (Heb 7) in contrast to the power of the New Covenant. But those physical expressions of worship were not and are not the Law. In fact, there is evidence Scripturally that hymns were sung in the early church (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 – please read these, as they give indication of more than just singing) including the Apostles (Acts 16:25). There are examples of hymns in the NT (Romans 11:33 and many others that I can’t find right now). There seemed to be a continuation of singing and, as you would have it, “OT style” worship as mentioned in Romans 15:9. Surely the “Psalms” that Paul suggest we sing in Eph 5:19 would have their root in the Psalms of the OT? And what exactly are these “Spiritual songs” he mentions?

    I know you’re not against singing, but surely you can see that 1) there is a continuation of OT praise in the NT and 2) There is no indication whatsoever that such expressions of praise were negated by any of Jesus’ comments. Please take no offense, but your use of John 4 to justify no more dancing or physical expressions of worship is flimsy at best.

    As for Koch, I have no problem with you referencing him or that he or you are Cessationists. The reason I mentioned that he was a cessationist is because of course a cessationist would say the things he does! You seem to have dodged quite nicely my question about tongues being an NT expression of worship/prayer. Acts 10:46 couples the speaking of tongues with praising God. Scripture cautions us not to forbid the speaking of tongues (1 Cor 14:39), probably because one (or one possible?[1 cor 12:30]) sign of those who believe will be the speaking of tongues (Mark 16:17). It is indeed a very Spiritual form of worship (1 Cor 14:1-2), as the Lord suggested in John 4. But it is not to be over-emphasised over and above the fruits of the Spirit, especially Love (1 Cor 13:1). So how, exactly, do you call this sign “man centred worship”? That question goes for dancing and jumping etc. as well. I am not denying that it CAN be man centred (just as any form of worship can be depending on the context – and this is, of course, no worship at all); I am questioning your assumption that these expressions have been superseded by some introverted form of worship though.

    I am glad you have found freedom in the position you are in now. I meant no offense at my comment. My point in writing all this, though, is to show that NCMI as such is not to blame here. You hold a different position than NCMI on the Spiritual gifts – namely, you believe that they have ceased. I think it’s a shame that you believe that, but I am well aware that this will have no impact on your salvation or relationship with God, so at the end of the day, big deal. You are a brother of mine because we worship the same God, albeit in a different way.

    Your gripe is with a local church that relates to NCMI. I honestly believe with all my heart as a person that knows Tyrone and a lot of the team leadership, that they are really trying their hardest to administer what God has given them by his grace. There are mistakes and failures. Anyone can point those out. But to use language like “occultic” and “sect” in my view is extremely unfair and unwarranted.

  5. Yes, Jesus’ words in John 4 give no indication to dancing, but in context with what worship is described as in Acts 20:7, Acts 2:42, Acts 4:23, 1 Corinthians 11:18, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16 and Colossians 4:16.
    If we look at 1 Corinthians 14:33 we will see that God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. I have to ask you, is stage dancing what god would want? Is running up and down what God would want in a worship service. It is out of the biblical model for the New Testament church which NCMI holds so dear.
    I ask you again; did the Lord while incarnate on earth ever dance in worship to God? Is there any record of the disciples or Apostles doing the same?
    You pointed out that Eph 5:19, and Col 3:16 which show singing as being a normal part of New Covenant worship. I also pointed that out in my reply and you are right that I am not anti singing. This is because there is a biblical precedent set in the above verses. You mention that they give indication to more that just singing, well lets look at the verses in question and see what they say.

    Eph 5:19
    Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,

    What else is indicated? I can’t see it.

    Col 3:16
    Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

    Again it instructs the same as above. Where is the dancing?

    Just for interest Paul also used to sing Hymns:

    Acts 16:25
    But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them

    You point out that “1) There is a continuation of OT praise in the NT and 2) There is no indication whatsoever that such expressions of praise were negated by any of Jesus’ comments”
    To your first point, what forms of praise have been carried through into the New Covenant? Sacrifices have been nullified, burning of incense has been nullifies, the priesthood has been nullified etc. These where all systems that where put in place so that the Jews could worship God. It was a physical form of praise. Today we have a spiritual form of praise. We worship God in Spirit and truth.
    Does John 4:21-24 not negate OT praise? Do you really believe that?
    I am a Cessationist, and I am a fellow brother in Christ Jesus. It is as you say unimportant to my salvation. I did not cleverly ignore you questions on tongues, it was just an honest oversight. I never said in the post that tongues where wrong. I do believe that tongues today are a false doctrine but that was not the point of the post above.
    I do not wish to enter into a debate here in comment form to if tongues are still around today or not. It is an intense subject, with a great need to look deeply into scripture as a whole. I will however one day when time allows present an essay here in the context of NCMI and we can then have a good old debate on the subject.
    I will point out here that the practice of mass tongues is out of the biblical model.

    1 Cor 14:27
    If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

    This is not what happens at NCMI and you know it. I have seen hundreds of people speaking in tongues at the same time. This is what I addressed in my post above.

    Yours in Christ

  6. The book of Corinthians is clear on what should go on in a church. I wonder what Paul would say to the church in chaos? The hype and the ‘all speaking in tongues.’ the ‘spiritual competitiiveness. Sam, have you read the book of Corinthians. I read it about ten times in the space of two days just to truly see for myself in light of scripture. Yes David did a wonderful thing to dance But, there is a healthy balance.

    When giggling happens during a sermon, it is destructive and disorderly – Not of God. God is Holy and a lot of people have lost sight of that! Dancing is great. I love dancing but some people put on a show. I find it humbling to be before God and I used to dance but now I prefer to humble myself, be in my knees with my head bowed to honour and glorify God. Each to their own, but I have seen the chaos in a service and it is scary, emabarrasing and down right wrong! People who were new would walk in and never return because a lot of people get carried away in their emotion and start acting crazy.

    There is a level of respect to God that has been lost in the chaos!

  7. Sam, I was hugely in love with ncmi and the way it worked. I too have the praying in tongues BUT since then I realise the ONly time one should pray in tongues is when there is an interpretor present! It is meant for a sign to unbelievers. It is better to prophesy.. once again study corinthians. Tongues was a Language!!! Tongues was used to spread the gospel to other countries! It is now misused completely and might I add that mormons, jehovah witnesses and cultic religions also pray in tongues. So there has to be an interpretor present if there is any tongues.. Speaking in tongues is unbiblical if done disorderly!

    Paul even said he would rather speak 5 intellectual words that people can understand than to speak in tongues. REmember tongues is a language. Pray about it. Study for yourself! Pastors have been really taking advantage of God’s people big time!
    I pray with my spirit and my mind. My mind must always be fruitful. Will not people say we are mad? Not only ncmi but a lot of charismatic churches make the mistake of falling into the corinthian category. Now God loves the corinthians, that is why Paul corrected them. what this website is doing is bringing correction. why should we remain silent when so many things are falling apart in some churches and misinterpreting the bible!

    1. Well, I just checked out this website today and I see it is as other sites like this. Two sides who are never going to agree and both sides “knowing by Gods word that they are right” I think I will spend my time in making diciples .This is the “movement I am pursuing I hope you both {sides} will pray for me the opportunity and hearts desire to continue in this ministry. In “brotherly love”, William

      1. It was very nice of you to come here and try post some blanket statements. I am not a pastor, but I am Human and I understand hurt. I work in Ministry with Children who are abused and abandoned, and the things I see in my work can easily be lined up to the abuse we see in NCMI. These however are experiences that I receive in life, and they are not to be trusted, because Faith is not built on experiences, it is build on Trust in the Word of God. The Jews demanded signs and wonders, I do not, as Gods promises are sufficient for me, and his Word, Providence and Love get me through my day.

        NCMI, at its very heart is built on “sand” and not on “rock”. Its point of difference from the traditional church is Signs and Wonders, apposed to Blind Faith. Angus Osman is the founder of their movement (1901) because she started speaking in Tongues (Real Chinese) and writing in Tongues (Real Chinese). As the Pentecostal movement progressed from this starting point, the experience of the individual and not Scripture became key. This is why from the inception of the Pentecostal movement xenoglossolalia (Acts 2 Tongues or Tongues of Nations and People) became simply Glossolalia. Within its History, the pentecostal movement has twisted and distorted its own premise for existence.

        So, you say that both sides “knowing by Gods word that they are right”. Fine, as a layman I have tried to present scripture to back my claims, but when it really comes down to it, Experience with be the key of the NCMI arguments because that is what their church is built on:

        NCMI ELDER: I honestly get the impression that, while prayer is the correct biblical response (letting God do what He does) some people at your church have taken matters in their own hands. Clearly going to court is not biblical and clearly setting yourselves up against leadership is not biblical.

        In the context of “Rape” or “Financial Abuse” I would like you to show me the biblical precedent

        NCMI ELDER: I desire to be an elder one day (Already and Elder), which is a noble desire. When you get to lead people you gain insight in to scripture that would have been just words to someone who has always followed, such as yourself. I know what it takes to lead and love a small group for years and I have amazing respect for those who lead hundreds and thousands. By your own admission you have never lead people so I don’t expect you to understand a word I am saying.

        From an elder, who both lied to prove his point and promoted a biblical hierarchy. So, considering, that in my limited knowledge as a Layman, and my insistence that we should hold true to the key points of the reformation (sola scriptura) I would say that I have supplied what limited bible knowledge I have to prove my points on this site, where on the invert – NCMI people with fall back on their human experiences, because such a statement as above could not be derived from the Bible

  8. “but I have seen the chaos in a service and it is scary, emabarrasing and down right wrong! People who were new would walk in and never return because a lot of people get carried away in their emotion and start acting crazy.”

    Well said, here are some aditional verses:

    Romans 14:13,19-21
    Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
    Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    P.S. As you can see Getting there is not a Cessationist in the traditional sense. She believes that tongues are OK if they follow the biblical model. I on the other hand believe that tongues ceased with the completion of the scriptures and the end of Sign and Wonders at the death of the last Apostle.
    I would like to consider Getting There to be a friend of mine. I think this shows, and I need to make it clear, that this blog is not here to put down the Charismatic movement as a whole, but focuses on NCMI, which is a church movement with problems that spill out into the homes of innocent people that attend the relating churches. Getting There is absolutely correct, why should we keep quite if there is a problem. Can you give me a biblical example as to why wistle blowing the problems of this movement is incorrect? Please don’t come with the “Touch not thine anointed” argument, because I believe none of the leadership within NCMI to be anointed.

  9. Sam this is written in brotherly love. Emotinal experience and ecstatic blabber, charismatic tongues, are signs of an immature church. Read Corinthians. We are being warned not to act in such a fashion but to mature and to have order in church not chaos. Tongues, glossia, is a foreign language as indicated in Acts 2 at penticost and later. The charismatic, heavenly language is the same as seen in the occult. This is why we must test the spirits. The test is order, no more than three, and interpretation. If this is not done then run it is not the Holy Spirit but from the occult. You know this and can not have an argument if you honestly beleive in the Bible as the Word of God. Many charismatic pastors want to add to the Bible. Well if you compare many charismatic churches with the Roman Catholics there are many similarities, tongues, absolute authority of the church, signs and wonders, money, control. Have an honest look at the NCMI theology and search the Scripture to ensure that all you do is Biblical. I have had first hand experience of the selfish, cult like control that charismatic churches have over their members.

  10. I have never me across an interpretor, so I am still waiting regarding that one. I do believe that it was meant for a sign for the Jews as far as speaking in tongues goes.. If you look at all the different meanings of tongues it is not mixed up syllables, it is a definate language like spanish or afrikaans or Italian ro french.

    People forget that To follow Christ comes with a great cost. It’s lot all laa di daa. and we are to stand firm to the end and endure. The gate is narrow, not wide. many will tune their ears for what they want to hear. Sam, I was once just like you thinking I was right in my thinking.. Truth is the bible is right and there is not denying that. Are you talking via your pastor’s interpretations or your own? Have you sought God about really revealing to you His will, His truth and His word, His widsom, His guidance on the matter.

    I am not jugding what you believe because I myself was there defending ncmi or anyone who dared speak against it. But I can warn you Sam, I warn you to not listen to what I have to say or to what the pastor says, I warn you to listen carefully to what the bible says, pray about it, read scripture and genuinly fight for finding out what is true. Ncmi is wrong in its teaching of generational curses, health wealth, dominionism, soul ties and on and on.. It is very subtle but its an unfortunate fact. It is God’s church but people are going their own ways and their own style of interpreting the bible and messing up the origional plan and purpose of the church. Use discernment! God wants His people to see Truth! He loves you enough to set you free.

    Maybe your church is different.. I also thought my church was the best… Until I sought after God’s truth in the matter.

    Thanks Concerned, I consider you a brother! Sam, I consider you a sister or brother too and if I tell you stuff that you want to hear, how can I honestly be of any help then. Do I ignore this or genuinly help you see the chaos?

  11. Hi everyone, and thanks for your input. I’ll try to address everyone, forgive me if I miss some of your questions/queries/concerns/accusations/warnings. I’m sure it will all come out in the wash.

    I first wanted to comment on this from Concerned:

    “Getting There is absolutely correct, why should we keep quite if there is a problem. Can you give me a biblical example as to why wistle blowing the problems of this movement is incorrect? Please don’t come with the “Touch not thine anointed” argument, because I believe none of the leadership within NCMI to be anointed.”

    Nowhere have I proposed or even hinted at the old “touch not thine anointed”. If you read carefully a few of my posts here, you’ll find that I’m all for a healthy bout of criticism if it’s done in the right heart. If you are earnestly seeking truth and are motivated out of a heart for the Church, God’s people, then it’s fine with me.

    For the record, I have also played a role of watchman (yes, I’m male) in the church. Without wanting to go into detail, I left a relating church largely because of the chaos, disorder and emphasis on gifts rather than fruits after warning them not to go down that path. I am fully aware of the problem you are addressing [although as I’ve made clear, I disagree with your conclusions], and the value of a Berean who seeks truth earnestly.

    So you must see I am not bringing such a distasteful cliche to the table. I would suggest that NCMI as a group is not to blame, but individual leaders are. That is my point. As I’ve stressed here, I know that leaders in NCMI are really trying their hardest to deal with these issues at hand, and so that is why I have stated I think it is unfair to make blanket statements about NCMI based on your limited experience.

    Moving on.

    I just want to clarify a few things.

    1) I’m not big on corporate babbling without interpretation. Yes I agree this is a side issue and so I’ll leave it at that – tongues is one that we could debate for hours. Let’s just say I think there is a place the pentecostal understanding of the gift of tongues, although I’d really like to see other languages being spoken more often than the babble, and it concerns me when there is no interpretation. I think 1 and 2 will address most of your concerns Tim.

    2) I think giggling and raucous laughing and crying and animal noises are disruptive to corporate worship and should not be condoned by leadership. Genuine tears of repentance or laughter at the revelation of the wonder of the Cross have a place and can easily be discerned as authentic, so I pretty much agree with you getting there and Tim.

    3) I am defending NCMI because the absolute majority of people I know love God and are passionate for His ways. Yes they could do with a solid bit of systematic theology and yes many relating churches have a tendency to self indulge in what they call worship.This is something that needs to be, and I believe is being ironed out. The majority of leaders I know, and [please hear me that I am no way bragging] I know many personally, love the sheep and care for them deeply.

    4) I don’t think the best way, as a mature Christian [I’ll get to maturity below Tim], is always to flee at the first sight of incorrect teaching/behaviour. I strongly believe that God has given me the grace and conviction to help bring balance and change in my sphere of influence [which is small but what God has given me] within NCMI. Thus far, aside from the church we left, the elders have been very willing to listen, have not ignored me nor have they abused their authority in any way. Having said that, and obviously depending on context, there are conditions which would prompt me to leave a church, so please hear what I am saying and not what I am not.

    Getting there said:

    “Sam, I was once just like you thinking I was right in my thinking.. Truth is the bible is right and there is not denying that. Are you talking via your pastor’s interpretations or your own? Have you sought God about really revealing to you His will, His truth and His word, His wisdom, His guidance on the matter.”

    I’m a post-graduate student of theology through a secular university – the faculty is composed of mostly of Anglican, Methodist and Roman Catholic professors [not an NCMI guy in sight]. I have learned to think independently and of course pray earnestly that I will not stray into false teachings. I can assure you that I adhere as closely as I can to an honestly Scriptural understanding. This is an ongoing process of refinement and is why I am studying where I am – to try and break the blinkers off that so easily come from being in one stream of Church for so long. I thought it would be a good idea to hear a variety of thoughts about God and His Kingdom, His Church and how we can understand Him better.

    Back to dancing.

    I think this topic only has relevance in context. Out of control mosh-pits are not worship nor is mindlessly babbling or any of that stuff as we can both agree on. But I think you’re simply being ridiculous, Concerned, to suggest there is no place for a dance that comes from a heart of worship, as David’s did. Jesus didn’t dance as far as we know from the information given us. Nor did he marry, sing hymns or bungy jump as far as we can tell either. Yet surely these things are not negated just because the covenant has changed. That is simply poor hermeneutics.

    You said:

    “To your first point, what forms of praise have been carried through into the New Covenant? Sacrifices have been nullified, burning of incense has been nullifies, the priesthood has been nullified etc.”

    This is a classic straw-man argument. I have already stated that Psalms and songs were carried over. Archaeologists have evidence of musical instruments in early churches, which is common sense considering the hymns and “spiritual songs” featured in early congregations.

    You said:

    “It was a physical form of praise. Today we have a spiritual form of praise. We worship God in Spirit and truth.”

    It seems that you are suggesting that a complete transfer has taken place from praise expressed physically to praise expressed Spiritually. This is nonsense considering that singing (a verb, i.e. a doing word) is used to praise God in the NT.

    You said:

    “is stage dancing what god would want?”

    I don’t know what that is. I’m not trying to be funny, and I err on the side of caution and would say probably not. I also know that God created some pretty freaky animals and stuff that do weird things that bring glory to Him because they do what He created them to do. Perhaps He created a “stage
    dancer”. Once again, probably not. I want to undertline here, thought, the importance of heart attitude, as we know that the Father looks at our hearts (1 Sam 16:7)
    .
    Is running up and down what God would want in a worship service. It is out of the biblical model for the New Testament church which NCMI holds so dear.”

    I probably agree. I think I’m more lenient on this one than you, but anyway, it depends on what you mean. Would someone running up and down, drawing attention to themselves and not God bring their salvation into question? The Calvinist in me, which is quite strong, would say certainly not. It would more indicate that that man or woman needs to get off the Spiritual milk and move into maturity.

    Getting there said:

    “Ncmi is wrong in its teaching of generational curses…”

    The only preach I have ever heard on this topic was emphatic in its rejection of this belief. I agree it is a demonic doctrine. Do you have any evidence [because I am legitimately interested] that this sort of garbage has been upheld in an NCMI church?

    … health wealth…

    This is one that differs within NCMI churches. I’ve heard both sides of the story taught. I’m certainly no Creflo Dollar fan so let’s leave it at that. I think this is a big one that is being addressed as we speak by leadership. I think the mainstream understanding is that God can and does heal, both now and not yet. I am no spokesman, but that is my understanding of NCMI beliefs on the issue.

    …dominionism, soul ties and on and on.”

    Dominionism is a dirty word in the church and can be interpreted however people want. So I don’t really know what you’re talking about – MSoG, extreme Kingdom Now doctrines which are violent and abusive have no place in the body of Christ. If you’re talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, where God will govern the Earth again well… read the Gospels and Revelation.

    I have no idea what soul ties are and have never heard it mentioned. Any examples/evidence?

    If I’ve missed anything, let me know. Sorry for the sheer size of this post, but I think it’s important to lay out fully what we’re all trying to say. Bring on the questions/queries/criticisms/death threats or whatever.

    Peace to all of you.

  12. Hi Sam,

    First off, I think that we could argue this subject until it is dead. I think that your last post is good in that it show us that you are a sheep of NCMI, but not a blind sheep.
    I will address some of the points you raised about some of the practices or beliefs that you where not clear on.
    I also want to just state for the record that I believe that not all churches that fall under the NCMI banner are bad. I believe that over time, under the influence of the group they will start turning bad. I have stated this elsewhere on this blog. I know that here in SA most of the churches have been guilty of abuse in some form or another. In my home town consisting of about 9 NCMI churches I have not seen one that does not leave a trail of hurt people in its wake, not one!!!!! So, as you can well imagine in light of our personal life experiences with the group, I believe this blog to be necessary, but I will as I have done in the past clarify that this blog’s purpose is not to combat the Charismatic movement, nor to make any blanket statements regarding NCMI. The statements that are made here do however, in line with my personal experience and correspondence I have had with other people, cover the majority of NCMI relating churches. I believe that the buck stops at the top, so in my view the leadership of NCMI is to blame for all abuses that happen in the ranks below. I hope this make the purpose of this blog a little clearer.

    “is stage dancing what god would want?”
    This was a spelling error, my apologies. I meant to say stage diving.

    “Ncmi is wrong in its teaching of generational curses…”
    You reply to this surprise’s me. I heard it preached. I know people that have received deliverance and prayer to end curses that where caused by one parent being a Mason.

    … health wealth…
    My time at NCMI saw this, but only on a small scale. NCMI, or the church that I used to attend used to preach that if you tithe you will receive more back. There is a sermon on the NCF website (http://ncfchurch.org.za) by RT Kendall about this idea.
    I have heard however that this belief has picked up some momentum that is the more wordfaith form of this belief.

    …dominionism, soul ties and on and on.”
    Domion theology is a heavy subject, and again this is one that I am sure that not all NCMI churches are going to believe.
    This is the basic idea behind the belief. We are the Moses generation. We are church going, bible believing Christians, but we are going nowhere, like Moses leading the Jews through the wilderness. The next generation, our children, is the Joshua generation.
    The Joshua generation is going to take control the government (United States). Then through political pressure or military pressure that will start a mass conversion of the heathen counties of the world.
    The point to this mass takeover is to prepare the bride (church) for the bridegroom (Christ). They believe that the church has a responsibility to make the world perfect for the return of the King. There is much more to this but this is the main idea behind the belief.
    As to Soul Ties, I don’t have personal experience with this. Apart from covenantal relationships which is directly connected to the Shepherding Movement.
    Bring on the questions/queries/criticisms/death threats or whatever.
    No need for that here. Things can get a bit heated, but know that I appreciate comments like this. I have always said that if someone shows me that I am wrong through the scripture I will alter any post here. The post above should have never been debated to the point that it has. It was never meant to be a theological expose’. It was just the ramblings of my mind exhorting some of the things that I had experienced within the movement.

  13. Sam, if your church is biblical, then I have nothing to say and i am glad that you see the things you do. Unfortunately in my own church that I came out of, it had turned away from biblical sound doctrine. The threat of ncmi is that they are ‘held accountable’ in ‘their teaching’. They have so called ‘prophets and main leaders’ like a pyramid scheme and all churches in general submit to the main guys. That is my concern.

    Your church seems to be doing well and pray that it continues to do that because it is hurtful to see so many taken in by false teachers and false doctrine and the doctrine of demons.

    An elder told me that I had to break generaltional curse as my grandad was a free mason. Then they guided me in the soul tie prayer which is to release me from past out of marriage sexual relations.. they say, your souls connect and this needs to be broken. Annointing windows and bedding is also very popular. Their belief was that if you are not wealthy, you are not doing well spiritually. Wealth in their case brings honour to God and people will want what we ‘have’. Dominionism, take over the earth, you are the head, not the tail, you are above, not below.. placing ourselves higher than the rest of the world. We are to be the leaders of society and rule. This is all a load of poopoo! honestly I spend a few days in grief when God showed me this and I repented big time because it was all so wrong. even down to the pleading of the blood of Jesus. That too is unbiblical!

    The other thing was that they would touch the chairs and bless them, they would pace up and down and chant. I remember a ‘prophet’ coming and everyone stood in a que to get a word from God.. almost like fortune telling quite honestly. It is shameful and yes, not all churches are like that.

    It is my belief tha a lot of churches are ‘falling away’ they are in the apostate phase ( I am going to learn and study more of this) but the church is moving away from the bible and going it their own thinking that they are doing what’s right but they are sadly wrong.

    This is not a debate and nor do I wish to make you feel Sam, that I am against you, by no means am I against you but for you! If I didn’t care, I would leave things be. I would say nothing.

    Ncmi has the top guys like a pyramid scheme and it has the potential to rub off every church. I would suggest for you to pray for your church to remain consistent with the word of God. Bless you!

  14. Oh and I would suggest you click onto the link called ‘let us reason’ on this blog. I found it to be very helpful and brought to light some of the false teaching within some churches. And it is not only ncmi that is going their own stride.. it’s some churches in general no matter what denomination.. the only thing is that ncmi is like a pyramid scheme.

  15. and just to clarify with myself and concerned

    I am in Cape town
    Concerned I think is in Johannesburg

    2 different ncmi churches in 2 different parts of South AFrica with the exact same teaching and doctrinal errors. There are many others from other parts of the world that have also discovered this same false teaching and chaos.

    this is just a thought.. as I say the pastors have to submit to the main guys… it’s scary!

  16. In another ncmi related church, this one lady had to publically repent in front of the whole church for falling pregnant outside of marriage. this has left her traumatised.. how humiliating! SEft righteous and disgusting! why not throw stones while they were at it.. sorry just making a point.

  17. Getting There, It is great how you speak from your heart. I get too intellectual sometimes. I am from Pietermariztburg, not Johannesburg.
    It is interesting how you mention anointing with oil. I was once told by this one lady that I must get a vile of olive oil and use hold tight to it every time I pray. She said that the prayers would be caught in the oil and that one day when I needed to anoint something I could use the oil and it would have immense power, now that is a load of “poo poo”

  18. Sorry concerned that I mistook where you come from.. I am a bit cluelss on areas as a whole.. my husband had a good laugh when I told him about a kind lady offering me a lift to the shop he asked, “what car does she drive.” and obviously I answered, “I don’t know, a blue old car.” So I know nothing about cars nor do i pay the kind of attention I should in geography. my bad 😦 but I will remember now!

    That lady sounds crazy! oooooh its in the oil.. where do they come up with this stuff?

  19. It’s fine. I think you where thinking about Lara.
    The same lady with the oil used to say that Jesus used to visit her in physical form. She used to say that Jesus was a Trinity within Himself. He was compassion, love, and hope or something along those lines. All three used to visit her in her bedroom and they used to look like any old guy on the street wearing Nikes and levies. Well, I suppose that if you are God you can afford such luxuries.
    What I said above is no joke, and she runs the churches inner city outreach, so she is not just some small fry and to think that I used to believe the prophecies she brought for me. Was I mad, stupid, or just blind, I don’t know?

  20. Yikes, that’s hectic! I was also big into the prophetic and was addicted to wanting a word from God.. siily me, all this time, I had the word from God right in front of me, My Bible! At least we are out of it! Don’t be too hard on yourself!

  21. Getting there,

    Thanks for letting me know. All that stuff sounds like rubbish and I am deeply sorry that you were put through that by a relating church. It seems, like almost every denomination/movement/whatever, that NCMI does have a very long way to go. I just don’t get how that sort of stuff floats when we’ve got the Scriptures.

    I’ve seen in what’s being called the neo-Montanist movement in America (C. Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, John Arnott, Patricia King and of course Todd Bently could be lumped into the same category, along with many others like Che Ann, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones and the ex-Kansas City Prophets) a type of witchcraft creeping into the body of Christ. Some of the things you and Concerned mention (especially the anointing oil – what cr*p!) are trademarks of that movement. It is as I suspected – that it has taken root in some quarters of NCMI. It was the chief purpose of me leaving the church I mentioned before. Curses, portals, mantles and transferable anointings are nothing short of magic – so I’m glad you’re getting free of the stuff. I love 1 John 2:27 –

    As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

    How can we believe in all that stuff when we have assurances like this in the Word of God?

    So what’s the deal now? Have you found a Church or still a bit weary?

  22. Sam

    Thanks for being open minded and acknowledging that what we experienced is wrong and un-biblical.
    From what I can tell you are in the US. Maybe the problems in NCMI are a South African thing, but then again maybe not.
    Is there really a neo-Montanist movement??? Who would want to revive this ancient cult?

  23. Sam, my xpastor is big into Todd Bently and is friends with Rodney howard brown.. so you can imagine the cr#p that my xchurch was involved in. Thank goodness the holy spirit showed me the truth.

    I am currently not joining a church. Jesus is the vine for me.. not the church.. so I havn’t found a church, nor do I intend to rush into things but rely on God’s leading in this area. I would suggest you ponder on http://www.lifestream.org and click on Wayne’s blog, as that is where I am currently at. Maybe things will change in the future but right now I have to cling onto what I do know. I have found almost every church I have since attended has some of the same aspects.. preaching health and wealth and how God wants to pour financial blessings on us which irritates me incredibly. God is our provider but he is not our genie! So I find it very frustrating finding a church.

    I am saddended by the state of the church and there seem to be more wolves than sheep within the Church right now.. I am not saying all churches are like that but I am very cautious.

  24. It is good to have honest debate as that allows us to make up our own mind. I am also from Pietermaritzburg – South Africa. My ex- wife had Masonic demons cast out of her because her first husband was a Mason (now the Scottish Lodge Grand Master in Johannesberg) . This was done in the NCMI NCF Church. I once arrived home unannounced to find her casting Masonic demons out of another woman, she was rather fed up that I had interupted and insisted that this will not be done in my home.

    Sam I admire your humility and honesty and as a fellow Christian brother commend you. I agree lets cut all the #!#@ and get back to what God says in the Bible.

    God Bless

  25. Concerned,

    Neo-Montanism is what its critics are calling it (such as myself). They call themselves the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation).

    I’m based in Australia, but have traveled extensively over the past few years. For the record, I am in no position of leadership for NCMI. It does seem to me that the South African churches tend to be… different. But that may be simply because there are more relating churches there.

    Getting there – I hope you find a place of fellowship. It can be tough on your own, and like it or not, blogging is limited in what it can do.

  26. Oh and Tim, thank you very much for the comment. To be honest, stories like yours do trouble me. But it also encourages me to help clean up the church’s act, too. That sort of stuff is the direct result of poor teaching, which can be changed. I will say again; I honestly believe that there are people in leadership in NCMI that have a heart after the things of God and are keen to instruct the sheep based on the Word, not on superstitions.

  27. I wonder if anyone can point me to a comprehensive and reasoned and balanced critique of the NCMI? I am a pastor and find myself becoming increasingly concerned with the activities of certain NCMI individuals where I minister. We are a sound and very balanced evangelical congregation with a strong emphasis on expository and applicatory preaching, reaching out to the lost and ministry to the poor. I find people in my congregation cooling towards our congregation and when I investigate to try and establish the causes, I find that they have had much contact from quite a busy-body individual who attends an NCMI fellowship. I suspect a “relationship” focussed drive to proselytize people from other evangelical churches into NCMI. I have also heard our congregation being referred to as “an old wineskin” by some of these NCMI people. I find many (though happily not all) of them quite spiritually “snobby” and stand-offish- even suspicious. They seem to especially disrust my Reformed evangelical stance. I find it very hard to find a conversation with them on doctrine. I suspect that I am dealing here with a somewhat upper middle class white Western kind of spiritual elitism, based on little more than questionable spiritual “experiences”, ancedotal “preaching” (testimony seems to be preferred to actual preaching) and a strong aversion to anything “traditional”. Am I just paranoid, or do I have a real problem here?

    I am desperate to get on with other evangelicals, but I am experiencing quite a strain to get that right here.

    Can someone tell me more?

    1. Hi Willem, if you would like to speak to someone
      who actually cares and has insight by the Spirit of
      God you can contact me on above email.
      andreborrett@gmail.com What I can say is that things are not what they seem but we are to rely on
      Christ and His light and not walk in the light of the pastor or the light of the church. Thy word is a lamp
      unto my feet and a light unto my path. Andre

  28. Oh, and P.S.,

    Sam, you seem a vastly different kinda guy to some of the NCMI folk I bump into over here. I am not Charismatic (nor am I Cessationist; I simply disagree with the Charimatic definition of the gifts and I don’t allow my Charismatic friends to define me out of the discussion). But I think you and I could have some really good fellowship, despite our differences. I find that impossible with some of the NCMI folk over here.

  29. Willem, sorry that it took so long to approve your post. I have been sick in bed for the last three days and have not got around to the blog.
    I can’t really point you to any other website that deals with NCMI. I presume that you are looking for a website that deals with NCMI more as a study, instead of a personal account like this blog. I like to think that this blog is reasonable, and as I have always said, if someone can show me out of the bible that what I am saying is in-corect then I will remove or alter my posts. I do though have personal baggage with NCMI and I am sure that this comes through in my posts.
    What you describe sounds very similar me. NCMI sends missionaries out to old wineskins (non-Charismatic) churches to bring revival. They, as far as I can tell, usually place them into a church as worship leaders. These young men and woman are very talented and quickly get in as the worship leader. From there thing usually change fast in the church. I know of a reformed Baptist church where this happened and within a year they have had cases of tongues and people being slain in the Spirit. My advise, take a stand now. Make it clear as to what the churches stand is when in comes to tongues, and do this now because if you do it later you stand a real chance of having a church split.
    I knew this one CESA church that was infiltrated by a group from an NCMI church. The Rev dealt with them decisively, in a loving manner and made sure the church new exactly were they stood. The church made it through un-harmed minus a few of youth who left with the group.

  30. Dear Willem, pastors such as yourself really bless my heart because in this, I see your concern and it is very valid indeed. The Holy Spirit is very evidently leading you here and I encourage you to go with your feelings on this and as concerned has said, take a stand! Bless you and I will pray for you and your church!

  31. oh and the whole wineskin thing is a common thing within ncmi where they have twisted scripture… Maybe have a teaching on what the wineskin really is biblically. The Jesus Christ is the new wine skin.

  32. Dear Concerned,

    I’m sorry you are not feeling well. Hope you get over the flue soon. Thank you for your reply.

    Thank you also to “Getting There”.

    The comments of both of you are helpful. I was silently hoping that I am the problem in getting on with these NCMI folk, because that would give me the opportunity to just repent and get on with other brothers. I can hear that both of you have had some unfortunate experiences with NCMI folk. This blog has really given me good info. I found it while I was surfing the Net for info on the NCMI.

    While I know some really godly people in some NCMI churches, I cannot help but discern a real spiritual pride problem here. It all just seems so flaky and shallow.

    Thank you for the comments and the advice. I shall keep my eyes and ears open and my shpeherd’s staff in hand.

    I shall pray for you both.

  33. After careful consideration, I have entered some thoughts under the heading “Critics” in the Wikipedia article on the NCMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Ministries_International). My comments run from para. 3 of that entry to the end of the section, with the exception of these comments:

    “It has also been said that some NCMI churches are in the habit of sending out “missionaries” in the form of worship leaders to (what they regard as) “old wineskin” churches, in order to bring about change. This tactic has either resulted in the non-NCMI evangelical or reformed church becoming NCMI related or in the church having a major split. Usually it is the latter, reinforcing an opinion that NCMI’s common evangelical courtesy is displayed in their readiness to rather see a church split in their attempt to make the congregants like-minded (to NCMI) than to just let the church be what it is.”

    I edited that section for grammos and typos today. It was posted in the past 24 hrs. and it seems to confirm comments that “Concerned” makes in his/her reply to me. It seems to indicate that this practice (of undercover “worship” leaders) on the part of certain NCMI churches is much more widespread than is generally suspected?

    I should be only too glad to consider comments on what I say in Wikipedia.

  34. Unfortunately, no matter how much I would like that to be another party involved in the editing of the wikipedia page, I have to make it clear that this is an edit made by me. Thanks for editing my grammar, and maybe you can find testimony besides mine and getting there that can be put on record officially and used as valid references on the wiki page. That way, we will have a case to argue against the removal of the Critics heading.

  35. I thought it fitted quite naturally with what I wrote. Thank you for your entry. I am keeping my ears open and my eyes peeled for testimony that may affect our entries one way or the other.

  36. I am what you folks call “charismatic,” so I have no problem with dancing or tongues in a service. In the interest of time and my poor over-worked typing hands, I will not go into all the reasons why I am in agreement with those things because they are really just a side note in what I would like to share here. Though I am charismatic, I have been having serious problems with the NCMI relating church I belong to.
    In 1996 the church’s leadership was handed over to one of the top NCMI guys. Since then, things have slowly become more and more disturbing. The Lead Elder immediately began to install his South African friends in eldership and deacon positions. Since then I have been told that I am rebellious because I do not “press into eldership.” When I asked for further clarification because I had never heard that phrase before, I was told that of course I would not understand it since I am an independent American who naturally doesn’t understand “team.” I told them I was confused about the phrase because I had always thought we were to press in to God. To cleave to Him.
    Eventually they explained that it meant that I should go to someone in eldership to ask their advise before making decisions, particularly big decisions. That asking advice was not good enough, I would have to take their advice, as well, because that’s the only way they would know that I am sincere. They told me and my husband that I was not submissive to him because I did not go to him before I prayed with people, and that I should ask his permission before going to the restroom during a service. They said that my family had to host in our homes families from other countries in order to be considered proper leadership material. In our church, the only thing to aspire to was being proper leadership material. To not be proper leadership material in our church is saying you are not serving God. You are said to be “on the fringe.” People only minister to the fringe people. Fringe people are not people to befriend.
    Now the eldership (predominantly South African) are selling our church, 15 acres of debt free land with a school also housed on the property. They borrowed $12 million to buy a 2 acre warehouse property. It has torn the church apart. Many left quietly, afraid to be the perpetrators of a church split. Others stayed to endure and attempt to affect changes. Now we are in a battle to save the land the school is still housed on. “Not touching God’s anointed” and “following your leaders without dispute as appointed by God” are the phrases espoused. Those that are fighting the sale are said to be rumor mongers and dissenters. In a recent letter to the congregants, the lead elder even questioned whether we were followers of Christ at all. Please pray for us.

  37. Dancer, praying for you and pray that God leads you to truth in all things.. keep asking God for direction remember that Jesus is your covering and not man… do not have a fear of man but a humble awe for God and His guidance is key! I trust that you seeing these things is the Holy Spirit guiding you here, keep praying as I will too keep you in my prayers!

  38. I have heard the phrase “press into leadership” here too. Sp have I seen the phrenetic way in which still enthused new converts (proselytes from other churches) attend LTS’s (leadership training seminars) in oder to become “leadership material”. The third tendency that you describe (the “fringe people” thing) I have seen extremes of here (there seem to be such a thing, almost, as “non people”, as far as people are concerned who have not benn “pressed into” NCMI. The more I observe about these people the stronger my suspicion becomes that we are dealing here with something that signficantly resembles a cult.

    Given the fact that there are many good Charismatic churches around that are God-honouring and free from these NCMI shackles and baggage, I see no reason why someone who begins to feel the pinch of the shackles and the weight of the baggage should stick around. I would just move on gracefully and graciously.

  39. Willem, for me it was a cult.. very much so indeed and the coming out of it was a huge process, not so much as the leaving but the recovering from something so deeply abusive.. unbrainwashing and the renewing of the mind.. undoing all that was done. Unfortunatly that experience has pushed me far from church but thank goodness I find myself trusting in Christ alone!

  40. It is difficult because I have been a part of this church and school for almost 20 years. The school has been completely cut off from the church and over 800 children and their families left without knowing if the school will survive. This all done under the guise of God’s “new direction” and Him giving us a “new wine skin.” The land that was supposed to be the inheritance for the people to build on and to be a training center for people to go to the nations was sold out from under us to a developer that will decimate the community we have served in for over 35 years. The community is outraged and embittered, fighting the developers plans so the sale has been stalled. We (those of us that have been a part of the church but disagree with what is going on) have formed a foundation and filed a Quiet Title that puts the ownership of the land into question and stops the sale until the courts decide who owns it. We were loathe to involve the court system but felt that there was no other choice since the lead elder believes he owns it all. It was given to him by the former lead pastor to act as a trustee for the congregation, to oversee, not to sell out from under us. The eldership has yet to submit their financial statements so we can see where the $12 million went. We had to file an injunction because they refused to obey the law which states that the financials must be made available to anyone who asks to see them. Many still in the church feel that our actions are unbiblical and that we are supposed to follow our leaders no matter where they lead. They blame us for a church split. These are people I have loved, cared for, served with, prayed with, hung out with for all these years. I cry every day for them. To walk away would be to leave this man (the lead elder) to continue to wreck destruction. To stay is to be embroiled in the division that he wrought, but we are blamed for. God has continually told me to stand and declare the truth. I do it with as much love and grace as I can muster. We are dealing with seriously abused children here, many of whom have turned around to protect their abuser. Where am I? Stuck in the middle. Praying. Standing. Healing. Trying to help others to heal. Trying not to make it all worse. I understand now why America went to such trouble to form a gov’t that would prevent anyone from setting themselves up as King. It is terrible to be subjected to someone who believes themselves to be the anointed one of God so his whims are God’s will. Someone who believes that to disagree with him is to be out of God’s will. Those around him do not voice any disagreement because they are trying to garner his favor. They believe that to be favored by him is to be favored by God. It is kingdom mentality, but not God’s kingdom.

  41. quote for you.. it might help… but pray about it anyway:

    It is often argued that we should stay in the midst of churches and bodies whose sins and follies we deplore, in the hope of saving them for God and mankind. Such reasoning has a good deal of force in the first stages of decline. A strong protest may arrest error and stop the gangrene. But as time advances, and the whole body becomes diseased; when the protests have been disregarded, and the arguments trampled underfoot; when the majority have clearly taken up their position against the truth–we have no alternative but to come out and be separate. The place from which we can exert the strongest influence for good is not from within, but from without. Lot lost all influence of his life in Sodom; but Abraham, from the heights of Mamre, was able to exert a mighty influence on its history.” – F.B. Meyer.

    This quote is found on the deception in the church website. if you have any things you need to find out.. you can find it in this site which is on my blogroll, just click my name and it’ll lead you to my site.

  42. Wow, I am not quite sure what to say. I think that it is clear that within NCMI there are some good churches and some bad. I believe that there are more bad than good ones. This is an example of a bad one. I was in a very similar church, but things never got as bad as this. It is stories like this that make a blog like this necessary.
    I will keep you in my prayers and hope that things will resolve, but I think that when things go as far as they have here a well managed split is more than likely better.

  43. What is dangerous about forums like these is that they can facilitate a bitter root which Hebrews 12:15 speaks of and this can grow up, cause trouble and defile many.
    Whilst I do understand the dangers of manipulating and controlling leaders in the church, their actions are usually self-evident – especially over a long period of time. The bible says by their fruit you will know them.
    Sometimes our own self-willed and unredeemed minds want things to be done our way and in our time, rather than in ways which are wiser and truer.
    What is an all too often sadness is that the patriot’s independence has twisted to the “I’ll do it my way”. This has caused many church splits in the West, and perhaps those in the above-mentioned land issue saga, are among those who believe that they have God’s view. My question is, when all of this is settled and assuming the non-eldership team win the court case, who will lead them? What qualifies this new leader? What spiritual battles has this leader fought and won – and I’m not refering to a church split as a “valid” battle, I’m talking about souls saved, bodies healed, leaders challenged and grown and churches planted and lead elders fathered? What heritage does this leader have? and here I throw it out to all in that group – What kind of church and school will you have in the future?
    How can we say that we follow God whom we can see, if we cannot follow his leaders whom we can. And if it is easy to follow them in easy times, where is the Abrahamic sacrificial rub?
    You may still be saying that you are right – then I dare you, throw down the gauntlet, challenge your present eldership team and let it be seen who God will vindicate – for either their authority is of God, or it is of men; and if it is from God, you might get more than you bargained for.

  44. Hi protagonist,

    I am almost confused by your post. Are these men anointed and are not to be held accountable? Is some good (saving souls, healing) enough to vindicate them for heresy? Is an apparent anointing enough to wipe out the countless hurts? What is the scriptures view on false teachers?
    I feel that you are playing the typical charismatic, trying to defend people that have no defence. The only defence that these leaders have is through Christ, this does not mean that they should not be held accountable in order to protect the Universal Church. Delighting in truth and hating evil is a sign of a Christian so why should we yoke ourselves to teaches that are twisting scripture and hurting people.

    1. I understand that change can be painful especially when it requires us to let go of things we ascribe value to. I would personally rather suffer loss than be caught out in rebellion.

      I heard your reasons for challenging your elders and while pretty emotive, they do not seem to be based in scripture.

      Heb 13 “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you” (v17) And as for those leaders that stand under your judgement consider v 18. “Pray for us, We are sure we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way.”

      I honestly get the impression that, while prayer is the correct biblical response (letting God do what He does) some people at your church have taken matters in their own hands. Clearly going to court is not biblical and clearly setting yourselves up against leadership is not biblical.

      On one occasion I have seen a congregation respond with prayer when a pastor’s actions caused concern. The pastor publicly repented after having a dream.

      You can’t act contrary to God’s word and claim to be righteous in your actions, even if the pastor is incorrect in his actions. (i am not talking about sin, but decisions made as a leader) Love your pastor and pray for him, he is responsible before God and will be held accountable as such.

      Consider that David held back his hand from striking Saul even when it seemed God gave him the opportunity to do so. David sought out God and knew he would take care of the matter.

      I can understand your anxiety, but we can not bend God’s word to suit our desires. Trust God, not the courts. Surely the property belonged to God and he can fend for Himself where His leaders (true and false ones) are concerned.

      1. Hi,

        You have assumed several things.

        1) The people I referring too are “My Leaders”. This is not the truth. I do not submit under them or take authority from them. I used to but the next point will clarify that.

        2) You presume that I did not pray, and that the Lord did not lead me. Again you assumption is false. Both my wife and I prayed for a solution, met with our leaders (who called me processed with the demon of Calvinism and told my wife she had a dark cloud manifestation over her head) and we sought out the advice of fellow Christians (see Matthew 18:15–17). After our time of doing this, more and more abuses were placed before our eyes. Eventually, with my wife pregnant it became clear we should leave and un-associate ourselves with the system and the leadership (see Romans 16:17 and Ephesians 5:11).

        3) You mention court! I have NEVER mentioned court and I have never taken a person from a NCMI relating church to court. I believe that if there is a case of sexual abuse, the matter should be handled in court (contrary to the churches belief)

        4) You presume that I consider NCMI leadership (The ones that I mention here, not all leaders) to be Christian. To presume that would be to presume that I believe the Dali Lama is a born again Christian! You going to tell me I am judgmental for that statement. Well, then when NCMI members stop telling Roman Catholics they are going to hell, I will happily recant.

        You quoted scripture. There is plenty of Scripture that says that people who teach Heresy, or are wicked should be exposed. They are to be rebuked them in the presence of all!

        See: Titus 1:13, Titus 1:9, Ephesians 5:11, 1 Timothy 5:20 to name a few!

        Remember that Paul rebuked his superior Peter.

        The bible calls us to defend the faith (The practice of Apologetics). A church that disobeys the scriptures but considering every church before the 1906 way back to the apostles as being heretic (Not Full Gospel) is Heretical. A church that has mass Tongues (1000’s a time) without translation is in clear violation of the scriptures and is thus heretic. A church that promotes a Christian hierarchy through the New Apostolic Reform is forgetting that we are ALL High Priests and have commune with the Father through the Son.

        Think I should keep quiet, and touch not your Elders? Well God bless you then, but I will NOT!

        Some simple advice to you, and some observation. Out of everyone that has EVER commented on this site, you seem the most controlled by Authority of other men. You seem to try justifying this through Scripture, and you seem to believe that Apologetic, Faith Based rebuking is a Sin, even if the bible tells us to do it. I suggest you stop belittling yourself, and start seeing what you really are. You, if accepting of Christ’s free gift are Sinless, washed clean and re-born his creation. You do not need people to tell you how to worship, or love God, and you do not need people to guide you through you spiritual walk. Christians walk the walk hand in hand, being led by one shepherd, the Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

        Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin.

        1 Peter 2:9: But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

      2. Forced to Hide, it seems that “i love Jesus” was commenting on Dancer’s desire to oppose her leaders.

        You are an angry man my friend 🙂

      3. I Love Jesus comments on the Authority of eldership. It was scary to read that someone felt that eldership could have so much authority. It could be seen as been a mis-understanding seeing that this person is a so called “sheep”. But then you make this comment! I find it surprising, because you are “I love Jesus” but make yourself out not to be. Your IP address and a search using both supplied emailed on Facebook confirm you are the same person. Not only that, but it also confirms that you are an elder at New Covenant Fellowship in Pietermaritzburg. This is the same church that I used to attend. So we now have a situation of someone trying to mis-represent themselves again who are part of the leadership structure of NCMI.

        Recap = “I Love Jesus” is “jesusgate” who is an elder at NCF, Pietermaritburg. I have screen shots to prove it!

        Now that we have that cleared up, I want to go back and address a point to you brought up earlier:

        I honestly get the impression that, while prayer is the correct biblical response (letting God do what He does) some people at your church have taken matters in their own hands. Clearly going to court is not biblical and clearly setting yourselves up against leadership is not biblical.

        Please, at the next elders meeting demand that Jeremy Diedricks quits his job. As an attorney he goes to court every day, and according to you that is un-biblical (or is it in matters only relating to elders?). I apologies that I did not get your context, I replied from the blogs backend and it did not indicate who you were replying to.

        Ok, so what is clear is this from your previous comments: you as an elder believe that we are not to question Eldership even though the bible says we should. Please can we debate that some more. I am very interested to hear what level of control you think is acceptable. Let’s debate it, it will be nice to FINALLY have an elder to make it clear, because nothing is clear with regards to NCF!

      4. For a cessationist you certainly are quick to claim God spoke to you which i find a bit contradictory.

        Seriously dude! I’ll quote from the OT since (according to you) God stopped speaking to His children after that.

        Eze 34:2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?

        >Now, what you have been doing is to set yourself up as Ezekiel.<

        Eze 34:10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

        To be a shepherd of God's flock is serious stuff. Notice that God is the one doing the sorting out and not Ezekiel. God still sorts out Shepherds who misuse their authority.

        Seriously dude, are you telling the world that you heard God confirm to you that you are His prophet of doom? (Not very cessationist or new covenant)

        If you have the ton's of REAL facts you claim to have, why don't you display some REAL courage and make it known to those in authority with specific verifiable information. I am sure that any church with verifiable, specific facts will act in accordance with scripture. You blow a lot of smoke dude!

        Come, i dare you to claim the status Ezekiel…..

      5. For a cessationist you certainly are quick to claim God spoke to you which i find a bit contradictory.

        I never said that God spoke to me? Did I say that – Let me show you what I said:

        After our time of doing this, more and more abuses were placed before our eyes. Eventually, with my wife pregnant it became clear we should leave and un-associate ourselves with the system and the leadership (see Romans 16:17 and Ephesians 5:11).

        Even a cessationist can believe that God leads you.

        Seriously dude! I’ll quote from the OT since (according to you) God stopped speaking to His children after that.

        WHAT????? Are you saying that you believe that cessationists believe the New Testament is False? Where do you get that from? I would expect a better understanding of opposing theology from a Church Elder! All your OT quotes below are irrelevant because unlike you, I am not ignoring Scripture, I am just putting into context. You see, you quoted versus that say we should respect, and support elders. I AGREE! But the bible is not clear cut as that, it also says that we should expose, publically rebuke, and spit out elders that teach falsehood. You are ignoring that whole part of scripture.

        Come, i dare you to claim the status Ezekiel…..

        This site is full of testimony, are you saying that I should perhaps get a court to verify the claims?

  45. Somehow I seemed to have come the wrong way round this blog … anyhow … concerned – as I said before – big guts to starts this blog …

    I also guess that my answer is here … that you are a cessationist … hmmmm … your beef with your experience at NCMI is right on … but please don’t let that determine your doctrine or your theology …

    I realise that this is not the place to argue for or against cessassionism but it’s relevant because it will distort from the real issues of NCMI … control and human effort

    Food for thought … dancing … book of Acts … Peter said they were not drunk as you suppose … clearly they were chaotic or Peter would have said nothing … dancing is not foreign to a drunk environment … and I can’t see how you can say dancing should be stopped … 6 months after I was born again I got so excited about God that I could not keep my feet still … and by mutual agreement I left a cessasionist church … I was so happy, so joyful I wanted to dance and sing praise all day … and I have never stopped … the kingdom is about righteousness, joy and peace … and inexpressable joy often leads to dancing … ask David … its there in the NT … you just have to realise Paul never needed to tell the Hebrews to dance or the ‘drunkard heathens’ … they just did … if it was not supposed to be there … he would have stopped it

  46. Protagonist –
    That very idea that leaders are of a church are anointed and are, therefore, above being held accountable for their actions is a huge part of this battle we are fighting. The “anointed” God speaks of in the Bible when He warns others not to touch them, are the children of Israel and, later, those that follow Christ. It never says that the elders of a church are anointed. In fact, it gives very specific criteria to be an elder, and then states that if you have an accusation against an elder, you should take a witness with you. The scriptures never say you are to bow to their whims. The authorities you are to obey are clearly referring to the law of the land, not church leadership.
    People have said that it is up to God to judge and take them out if they are wrong. But, I ask you, who gave them the position in the first place? People. Even if it was God’s idea, He used people to hire them, or choose to follow them. How is He to “take them out,” if they are no longer leading people to God but to themselves? He will use people. We are His vessels. His hands on earth, so to speak.
    As far as what is to happen to the church if we are successful… Well, the school will remain on their land which they have paid much for, and a new church will sprout organically. We will study and set up church gov’t step by step, as we see it biblically. We will minister to the broken-hearted and those led astray. We will choose leaders who exemplify those characteristics that the Bible says to look for.
    I admit this is not an easy road, but the road of not confronting this situation is the road of a coward. We are safest and most sure under the shadow of His wings, even though a battle may wage around us.
    Clearly, this is not a path I would have chosen. I would rather be dancing in worship, serving God without struggle. God chose otherwise and I am now grateful because I have learned much about trusting in Him, following Him as my Chief Shepherd rather than an earthly shepherd, really reading the scriptures thoroughly myself, and tearing down earthly kingdoms while building the Kingdom of God. There is no bitter root. I pray only peace, blessings and joy upon those that have misguidedly chosen to harm. I know that God is for them and not against them. That He wants them to open their eyes and see the destruction they have wrought and turn from their ways, to see healing and restoration come to His people. If they were to be allowed to continue this way, without anyone standing up to say, “NO MORE!” How many more lives would be turned upside down? How many more people would be lead astray? Regardless of what tomorrow brings for my beloved church, this must stop. Here. Now.

    1. I sincerely hope your church does not have to split.

      2Co 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. >He anointed us<,
      2Co 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

      You and your leaders carry the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

      1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
      1Ti 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
      Timothy was made an elder by the laying on of hands by the existing elders and was then told not to "ordain" more elders hastily. I see no other way of appointing new elders. (This is an elementary teaching Heb 6)

      The doctrine of "laying on of hands" ? Understand this and you will get why it is also said in Heb 13 that we should obey our elders.

      I can see you have great intentions, but this does not necessarily lead to Godly action. I am sure i would be taking things quite hard on the chin if i were you and so i will keep you in my prayers.

      Authority is the cornerstone of God's kingdom. Satan was condemned for challenging God's authority. As for us poor mortals, there is such a thing as delegated authority, which is worth while looking in to.

      Hay Forced to Hide, even a bitter, fire spewing cessationist is expected to embrace God's delegated authority.

      1. Hay Forced to Hide, even a bitter, fire spewing cessationist is expected to embrace God’s delegated authority.

        Nice one Piet, the love of God is really present in your school yard taunting. Maybe if I was not only a cessationist but also overweight you would keep pushing that point home.

  47. Its a shame to think that one can dedicate space on a website due to offence.

    here’s the thing: I don’t think God smiles when he reads this. (you go think about it)

    simply put: go get a life and do something worthwile with your time.. oh, sorry, you a seem to be under the impression that this is for a worthy cause…. sad

  48. Concerned, you mentioned in a earlier post that a well-managed church split would be the best route. I wonder how that could be implemented. Do you have any suggestions? When we asked for arbitration, we were vehemently denied (though that is the route our bylaws mandate). We are at a loss about how to do this well.

    Listener, I have thought long and hard about this. Prayed. Sought God in His Word and throughout my life. This is not about offense, it is about protection. Protecting those that God has put in our lives to care for. I think God has given us a mandate to do so. Biblically, this is obvious. I agree that God does not smile at all of the havoc that has been wreaked over His people. He wants us to love one another, not just those of the same status or mind set. There is nothing more worthwhile for my time then to do God’s will on earth.
    Clearly, if you see something that is not of worth in what I have written about then it is the fault of my limited expression. I am sorry I have not conveyed it well. I only wrote of it in my desire to garner understanding and prayer from a group of people that seemed to have gone through similar experiences. Their comments have been genuinely helpful. Thank you, Concerned, for stepping out to help others through the medium available to you. I know many others who did not feel able to write, but who have been gravely wounded through this catastrophe and have been ministered to through this website.

    Protagonist, what is your suggestion on how to deal with manipulating and controlling leaders? Other than simply leaving them to destroy all that has been built, what are the options you would suggest?

    1. Read Eze 34. God deals with His leaders. Your job is to pray for them, not to take God’s place in sorting them out. God is not weak. I sincerely hope you are under leadership somewhere and that you respect their leadership over you and that you pray for them.

      Read Heb 13 for some pointers if the concept is foggy. (sorry if i sound curt)

      I am a sheep and while i knew sheep could be smelly and even bite i must say, this web site is like a pity fest for those who would rather do it their way.

      1. Elders should be peacemakers, prayer warriors, teachers, leaders by example, and decision makers. They are the preaching and teaching leaders of the church. It is a position to be sought but not taken lightly—read this warning: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness” (James 3:1). The role of elder is not a position to be taken lightly.

        Those lead by the elders also have a responsibility. What do you think that is? Is it to sit in judgment of the elders? Now that would be interesting theology, to say the least…

  49. Well, I would not be qualified to suggest to you how to manage a split, if one is even necessary.
    I would like to ask you this. Have you approached NCMI directly to see what they have to say about the matter?
    You could possibly get another church that is not involved to mediate what is going to happen in the case of a split.
    Above all make sure that you are correct biblically when the church splits because you are in essence going to be starting a new church minus the influence of NCMI. Make sure that you don’t take any heretical beliefs across with you to the new split is of up most importance.

  50. Wow guys,

    All these messages… The topic was initially centred around whether charismatic or physical expression of praise and worship to God has its place in this day and age. Someone even said that there is no example found in the New Testament.

    Well, I am no bible scholar, but I have to disagree that an example cant be found.

    Read Acts 3 v 8

    “And he, leaping up stood and walked, and entered with them in to the temple, walking, and leaping and praising God”.

    Here was a man once crippled., and now whole. Worship is also an act of thanksgiving, and here dear people is a clear example of this.

    Should our expression be any different? After all, Jesus has freed us from the sin that once bound us.
    Let us rejoice in the freedom He has brought us!!

    God bless.

    Craig

  51. Sorry Forced to Hide, i live in PTA and was in PMB for the day. (Back now)

    I would not mind being an active member of the church you have your vendetta with. At the moment i am in a baptist church. What church are you in young fellow?

    My comments are directed at posts you have made throughout your site. I do battle to find the one where Tyrone is made out to be no better then the Dalai Llama. Any thoughts on what could have happened to that one?

    I desire to be an elder one day, which is a noble desire. When you get to lead people you gain insight in to scripture that would have been just words to someone who has always followed, such as yourself. I know what it takes to lead and love a small group for years and I have amazing respect for those who lead hundreds and thousands. By your own admission you have never lead people so I don’t expect you to understand a word I am saying.

    I furthermore notice that the people you accuse so savagely have not reacted, just like Jesus did before His accusers. How Christlike of them.

    Go plant a church and pour your love in to God’s true work for a couple years. If you make it, the people you insist are accountable to you may just want to hear what you have to say. I doubt very much you will have the same opinions you have today.

    PS.. I see the church you hate in PMB does feed the poor children in it’s area, has build a church in the township and hands out ton’s of food to families. I also see it looks after many orphan’s. Besides this i hear they gave quite a sum of money to the central baptist church when it fell on hard times. Besides this i hear the lead pastor’s father in law is a pastor in a traditional church. (You may want to recant, or clarify, your statements in this regard at least to this lovely local church in PMB)

    This is me signing out.

    ps… from what i have seen on this site i think it wise to remain anonymous when in disagreement with yourself.

    1. “I furthermore notice that the people you accuse so savagely have not reacted, just like Jesus did before His accusers. How Christlike of them.”

      Actually if you are having a go at Tyrone here for posting and arguing on these forums – you are not very Christlike yourself my friend.

  52. Forced to Hide, you are deleting my post’s as well as some of your own. You are good at re-writing history my friend. Crafting your website to suit your own needs is off the chart unchristian.

    1. Im not sure what you are on about. All posts on this blog require approval from me as a means to curb spam and derogatory comments. I have now approved your posts. Perhaps you should read the little notice that tells you just that when you posted the message.

      I have not deleted any of my comments. If they are disappearing, please indicate to me where, as I see all the posts that have been made.

  53. Great site. Awesome!

    People who believe the scriptures and question the Elders is a healthy act of LOVE and telling the TRUTH. No one can ever be wrong for pointing out non scriptural activities. The scriptures draw a fine white line! As a Christian we are not to conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed in the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what Gods will is, his good ,pleasing and perfect will.Romans 12:2.

    I will be back…..

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