What is Heresy

What does the bible say heresy is? Is it right to call anyone that is anti a certain doctrine a Heresy Hunter, and shrug off what ever points they raise?

Defending the Christian faith is known as Apologetics, and it is often misunderstood by the Christian church. Apologists against Charismatic and Pentecostal doctrines I believe have got the hardest job out of any other. I say this because you are not fighting what would be considered un-orthodox, but rather heterodox, or fringe beliefs. You are fighting against fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and this is often taken as divisive. It is also common for one of these Apologists to be told that they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is the one unforgivable sin.

I think “Let us Reason” website puts it well when they say:

“The apologetic wing of the Church can be looked upon as a mechanic who listens to the sound of a car, looks into the engine and then diagnoses the problem. If we went to a car mechanic who was able to accurately diagnose what is wrong, or could go wrong in the future, we would all be appreciative. But regarding apologists, most do not want to hear what is said because it might move them out of their comfort zone, or it’s simply what they don’t want to hear — that someone’s favourite teacher could be wrong and misleading them.”

What is Heresy?
Heresy is when someone, or some organisation starts teaching doctrines or ideas that are not presented in the Bible taken as a whole and in context. It is the departure from the orthodox, the inclusions of traditions, or experiences that don’t line up to biblical canon.
It can also apply to an instance where a truth that is taken out of Scripture, is elevated to such a degree that it no longer represents what was taught in the Bible.

The reformation fathers fought against heresy, and changed the course of Christianity. If they did not have Apologetic ideals we would still be under Roman Catholic doctrine, and indeed not even have the scriptures for ourselves as common men.

People often tell Apologists that the truth will always win, and that God does not need mere men and woman to defend His word. This is not correct, because if this was the case then there would have never been a need for the Reformation. There are also many cults out there that are spreading their wings becoming major players in the religious field and if they go unstopped, what will the Christian world look like in 100 years? But unfortunately, especially when it comes to Charismatic and Pentecostal preachers, they do not want to hear what you have to say, and cruelly label you a “heresy hunter”

Why is it important to fight the Pentecostal onslaught and for what reasons do I believe it to be heterodox? This is what I will present on this blog. I will not be looking at the entire Charismatic movement, but rather at one movement that falls under the New Apostolic Reformation banner. This movement is called NCMI or New Covenant Ministries International.

I focus on NCMI because I believe that there is not enough warning people that this specific movement has fallen into error.

I encourage people to visit this site and post comments on articles, and if you can give me a clear biblical reason why one of my articles are incorrect or does not reflect NCMI in the proper light I will then remove or edit it. I am not closed minded, but if you believe that I am wrong, then prove it by Scripture, because a Christians true measure is by Scripture.

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34 comments

  1. Hi Concerned.

    I am not entirely sure where I should send this response to, but I hope and believe you’ll receive and read it.

    Firstly, I am a very happy “ncmi’er”, and have been for the past approx 6-7 years.

    I appreciate your honesty and willingness to alter any blog posted if you are convinced other wise according to scripture!

    My question is though; show me a church/- group/- denomination/etc which does not have any error. Cant find it, wont find it, until we are in heaven…

    Maybe I am in the wrong, but should we not rather help to build and encourage the global Body of God, instead of bashing it to pieces?

    I believe that NCMI tries to ‘do church’ as biblical as possible. The problem however has its backdoor when it comes to the local relating churches. If you know the NCMI structure (as I suppose you do), you will know that local churches relate to the NCMI team by way of (friendship) relationship mostly. Which mean, if the local church does not invite/accept/etc the members of the team to their church for input/guidance/etc, then that church stand a considerable large probability to drift from what are taught by NCMI. This is not NCMI’s responsibility to get invited, but rather the local church.

    As I scanned some of your blogs, it seems that this mostly the cause of hurt and pain in the people who have left NCMI relating churches – the local church has tried to solve a problem without help and guidance from the apostolic team.
    But this could also be debated…maybe the team was involved, or maybe not.

    All I know is, as I mentioned before, to my mind, NCMI tries to be as biblical as possible, and I will submit to their teaching and guidance until I am convinced otherwise.

    On Rob Rufus.
    I do not know him, but have attended some of his preaching sessions and have listened to some of his recorded teachings. I acknowledge that a lot of what he says is extra-biblical, but that does not make it heresy, or does it?
    There is a saying: eat the meat and spit out the bones. If this is not true, then I suppose nobody must be allowed to preach. Even the great John Wesley, father of the Methodist church, believed error teaching, and his life showed it, even though the fruit of that was good!
    (Just for interest sake, Wesley was an Armenianist – believing you get saved not only by grace through faith, but also needed works. In contras with this, is the more biblical believe, I believe, that we are saved by grace through faith, alone (part of Calvinism)!)

    Kind regards.
    S

    PS – what I write is of my own initiative and my own conviction and understanding; I DO NOT acknowledge to be any authority/leader/spokesperson on behalf of NCMI.

  2. Quoted from S “I acknowledge that a lot of what he says is extra-biblical, but that does not make it heresy, or does it?
    There is a saying: eat the meat and spit out the bones. If this is not true, then I suppose nobody must be allowed to preach. Even the great John Wesley, father of the Methodist church, believed error teaching, and his life showed it, even though the fruit of that was good!”

    Hi S. With all sincerity and heart felt concern I must mention and clear what you have said when we look at the bible.

    Have you ever read Galatians 1vs 9 “if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted, may he be condemned to hell”
    Now this is not me saying this.. this is the bible.. you mention ‘extra biblical teaching’ Which means that this is outside the bible. anything outside the bible should be rejected! As far as the saying goes with the meat and the bones.. most ncmi people quote that to excuse or to accept false teaching within its church.

    I know there are no perfect churches, but the teaching should be and should reflect and love biblical sound doctrine. The bible should be the first and formost importance! Extra biblical churches are way off.

  3. Thanks for your post. I don’t really want to get into the difference between Armenians and Calvinists, but as I am sure that you know the differences are complex.
    I do know this. Wesley believed in the principles put forward but the reformists and two of those points were Solo Fide, or translated, “by Faith alone, and Sola Gracia, or “by Grace alone”

  4. “Heresy is when someone, or some organisation starts teaching doctrines or ideas that are not presented in the Bible taken as a whole and in context.It is the departure from the orthodox, the inclusions of traditions, or experiences that don’t line up to biblical canon.”

    Yes.

    I understand that you have been exposed to heresy within an NCMI church. You mentioned in another response that the buck stops with the apostles. Personally I think that is simplistic in that often local churches relate to NCMI in name only.

    So, I would suggest that errs in doctrine in individual churches are something that needs to be “ironed out”, which may take time and may never be perfect. I think a real concern would be if the apostolic team itself was teaching heretical doctrine.

    Now, just a side issue, but getting there quoted gal 1:9. S/He added the word “hell”, which is not present in the original Greek of Paul’s letter. I take it s/he was paraphrasing, but it seems to me that this comment is extra-biblical. So is s/he a heretic? Is this to be considered heresy? Sorry to use you as an example, getting there – I just wanted to raise an issue. When do we call it heresy, and how should the Christian respond?

    Peace

  5. S.. There are many interpretations in the bible but a pastor should know what he is talking about. For example.. our pastor was encouraging Todd Bently.. there are many things within ncmi that reflects false teaching and some even quote that the holy spirit is more important than the bible.. This was in my bible in other versions the wording is different.. but either way where there is false teaching.. it’s a really bad thing! whether condemned to hell or just ‘eternally condemned’ neither is good! condemnation is condemnation – full stop!

  6. Maybe not all ncmi churches are bad, but they all relate.. if one is bad.. it really puts a bad reflection on the rest.. like if you hand out with a drug addict.. this reflects yourself badly.. it creates a bad name.. and clearly there are more than one ncmi churches that have gone way off.

  7. Quoted from ‘getting there’: “The holy spirit ALWAYS works in line with the bible! ALWAYS!!”

    -Amen brother/sister!

    also,

    Quoted from ‘getting there’: “Maybe not all ncmi churches are bad, but they all relate.. if one is bad.. it really puts a bad reflection on the rest.. ”

    – again my question, where are we suppose to go then, for there are no perfect church group out there.
    NCMI are best to my mind thus far…if you put all Christian churches under the same type of magnifying glass this blog is doing, you will be left with nothing…only you, your Bible and God…this is not what we are called too…lone rangers.

    and also,

    Quoted from ‘getting there’: “you mention ‘extra biblical teaching’ Which means that this is outside the bible. anything outside the bible should be rejected! ”

    – this said and also mentioned Gal1v9* (Gal1v8,9 my favourite text paraphrased by AW Tozer), what does this actually mean? Could it be that if a gospel is taught where Christ is not the centre..?

    Extra-biblical, as far as I know, is not necessary bad, but could be, if the teaching is not Christ centred anymore. I do also hold strongly the text of Rev 22:19**, not only for the book of Revelation, but the whole Bible…still, most extra-biblical teaching I have heard, does not contradict this verse.

    To teach a-biblical theory, will however get you into hell, as indicated by the scriptures I have quoted already!

    * Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. – KJV

    **Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. – KJV

  8. Hi Sam.

    To add to your question/s, what is the biblical AND new testament view on being a ‘watchman’?
    Check the old testament references (there are more) in Ezekiel 33 and Psalm 127.

    Kind regards,
    S

  9. Sam, you pose some very good view points (by the way I am a lady, so you can now refer me as a she or visit my blog http://www.discernment4truth.blogspot.com to know more about me..

    The reality is that we are not to add or subtract from the bible.
    I was heavy into ncmi and I loved my church and would stand up for my pastor if anyone came against his teachings.. then I started praying for truth and got the shock of my life only to find that I was taught incorrectly. We are to test the spirits. WE are to question the teachings.

    the bereans were commended because of their research and testing it against scripture. WE cannot go in blindfolded.

    Let me put it bluntly re bible teaching.. Mathew 7 vs 13 “enter the narrow gate”
    then go further down and read Mathew 7 vs 21.. and read that chapter.

    error is error .

    1. Hi,
      I go to a local church that relates to ncmi, I’m courious what unbiblical teachings are you accusing the ncmi of teaching? If the problem is that you believe the ‘gifts of the spirit’ are no longer in operation, well then it is more a matter of interpretation and opinion. If there are other teachings you believe are heretical I would like to know what they are.
      I’d also like to say that I think you’ve misunderstood what the whole of chapter 7 of Matthew is about, the issue Jsesus condems is hypocrisy. It’s the people who claim to be in Christ or in the church but aren’t, you will know them by their fruits. I realise this is my interpretation and I may be wrong.

      With much love,
      InGod.

      1. Hi
        Chiming in with my $0.02 worth 🙂
        I don’t have a problem with the fruits of the spirit at all. The issue I had was the subtle and strong manipulation that lay behind a lot of what was done. A lot of what people were being influenced to do was spiritually ok. Manipulating and coercing people to do those things is not ok though in my books. There was very much a sense that you became more holy, and more part of the church by being involved in the holy activities (fasts, prayer meetings, conferences etc).
        As a group they seemed incredibly insular. On our book stand there were mostly books by the denominational leaders. Our current church library has a broad collection.
        It was the closest to being in a cult that I’ve ever been.

  10. One more thing.. it is known for people to preach another Jesus other than the origional one.. so Yes Jesus needs to be the centre but we also need to make sure which Jesus we are talking about. anyway. I see what you are saying and I understand.. A few months ago I would have said it like you do but through much agony, prayer for wisdom and truth and come to conclude that the church I went to went way past biblical teaching. Maybe it isn’t nmci in general but I certainly will never ever ever ever go to another ncmi church again.

  11. Hi ‘getting there’

    I think we are on the same side – followers of the only true Christ. And for that, I am grateful.

    May God lead you to restoration, only He can, and wants to!

    Never say never – an Afrikaans saying goes: ‘moet nooit sê, fonteintjie ek gaan nooit weer van jou drink nie’

    phileo love
    S

  12. S – I’m grateful for the gift of discernment in the body of Christ. I thank God that we have objective truth in His Word and do not have to base our doctrines on experience. The Berean’s were commended for an attitude that was hungry for truth and for the things of God (and I would add only the things of God, which many a mainstream preacher leaves out) – not just an adherence to Scripture. The pharisees attempted to adhere to Scripture too, but were without the Holy Spirit and look where it left them.

    The role of a watchman is something that is certainly overlooked in today’s experiential-based seeker sensitive church, and seems to be interpreted as the bad smell at a party rather than an integral part of the body.

    Getting there – You’re not bashing, but you are debating whether you like it or not 😛

    It’s a shame in my view that you were mistaught. If you were to live on a diet solely provided by a pastor, and took no incentive yourself to feed yourself as the Scriptures commend you to do (1 Cor 3 etc.), You’d stay an infant. You’d be swayed by winds of doctrine. You’d never grow to the mature things in Christ. I’m not saying this is you – I’m saying that we must supplement ourselves. Sunday cannot be our meal – if it were, the church would have to be a whole lot better than it is at the moment. But when we’re mature, we can accept or reject teaching in accordance to Scripture. My church desires to be what God has asked it to be – a family who loves Him. Some people teach dubious doctrine which is unfortunate and needs to be addressed – but to give up on it? Not unless God does I suppose.

  13. I am not staying away from church.. but I will stay away from an ncmi church.. I will stay away from seeker sensitive churches and from those that want experience more than biblical teaching.. yes the pharisees were way off.. then again so were the corinthians.. it is finding the right church that can intergrate the things of the spirit without stepping out of biblical teaching that I am looking for.. its the healthy balance that I battle to find.

  14. Hi Guys

    Well what an interesting website, blog or whatever…

    From what I can see there is more than one issue that exists in the posts and frankly its fairly logical that if you agree with point 1, you’ll agree with point 2 and 3! I’d like to give a few comments that I think might help.

    1. that the charismatic movement is heresy
    2. NCMI is heretical
    3. Rob Rufus is heretical

    1. I got saved walking up the stairs of railway station in the UK, after having grown up in a Christian home. I spent my first 6 months in a church that was ‘cessationsit’ and tongues were demonic. I spent my next 6 months in a church where after 6 months I walked out when I told was told that the bible could contain error as it was written by man. My first comment towards cessationism and that God does not speak through anything but the bible and that we don’t need anything but the bible, then I want to ask you if you have read your bible! There is account after account of God meeting with man, face to face, as a friend, eating with him etc from Abraham to John, and you cannot seriously tell me that the bible is a book all about what we cannot have – it is surely a book about what we can have (rather than exceptions) and a book for living. If you don’t think we need the miraculous of God today – then dig a bit closer into the scriptures – we are supposed to be doing the works that Jesus did and greater and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus said He would not leave us as orphans and He clearly said that He would send us the Holy Spirit . He clearly did not not say He would send us a ‘book’. The book clearly tells us that we should be ‘experiencing’ a person.

    “Heresy is when someone, or some organisation starts teaching doctrines or ideas that are not presented in the Bible taken as a whole and in context.It is the departure from the orthodox, the inclusions of traditions, or experiences that don’t line up to biblical canon.”

    Yes and no. Yes to the first statement and no to the second. The traditions of men nullify the word of God. Jesus challenged the orthodox on a daily basis. God should be limited to the scriptures not the orthodox, and they may not be the same.

    2. I was part of a NCMI church for a few years and I think that you will find many charismatics challenge some of their views. I am not convinced NCMI has ended where is started, much like most denominations. There are some serious issues with control and manipulation in many local relating churches, and this is fed from the ‘top’. I don’t want to rehash stuff about this as wikipaedia discussion highlights the issues and believers need to follow God wherever they are because I don’t think you can ‘right off’ every church because they relate to/hold with a particular denomination.

    3. I have been listening to Rob Rufus for about 3 years and most of what I read here seems to misqoute who he is and what he stands for. He is radical about preaching the word of God and he regularly challenges believers that the problem with the church is that they do not know the word of God. He is also radical about seeing people come to Jesus, fellowship with God and see the miraculous. His ‘beef’ is with people who ‘quote’ scriptures from their ‘head’. Note – he said ‘head knowledge’ not that they were bringing scriptue. He is heavily criticised by people, especially for His message of grace and that man is NOT saved or blessed by his own works or performance but rather by a gift of righteosness. That is surely the true gospel. He really does not preach ‘another gospel’ unless you think that ‘gospel’ is dependant in some way upon you for its power. As to ‘extra biblical teaching’ hmmmm he uses lots of stories to illustrate the scriptures in daily life which I don’t really see as an issue when they are ‘works confirming the words’.

    One thing I have noticed over the years is in both the charismatics and the evangelicals there is a great emphasis on ‘the sinless life’ and the ‘correct doctrine’. No I am all for both of those but that is not what life is about. We were never supposed to eat form the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’. Both goodness and evil are its fruit. It is a reflection of wanting self righteousness. We will never preach the faultless sermon or doctrine – I guarantee you that if you want to find something wrong, you’ll find it – we’ve fallen short. That is why we do not rely on that – we rely on His righteousness. It is off that the power flows and our relationship grows. Rob Rufus is very open to correction if you have heard him often enough, he welcomes people to ask questions. His request is simply that you want what he believes the bible is all about. A real living God. If that is not what you want, well it stands to reason you’ve disagreed before you started.

    I also think that it is not helpful to limit people. We are living stones and are being transformed from one degree of glory to another IN HIS PRESENCE and through the renewing of our minds ON THE SCRIPTURES. Please allow people to change, shift doctrinal stances blah blah blah – ourselves included.

  15. Trumpet of Grace, I can understand your last paragraph.. people change their stance on doctrine, like I did, dramatically after praying for truth. ncmi church my the one I came out of was heavily into lakeland revival and unfortunatly a lot of people are caught up in it. This is serious.. it’s no joke that people are being led away by this kind of stuff. someone has to warn… dont’ u think?

  16. Hi there,

    I have just stumbled accross your blog-spot, and feel compelled to reply.
    I attend an NCMI relating church, and have been to numerous annual conferences, and I have to say , that the reason I keep attending , and remain committed to fellowship, here is that I find every aspect of what is taught, to be Word based. NCMI is not a “movement” or “denomination”,. If you read the book of Acts, you will find that NCMI embraces this teaching along with the WHOLE word of God. There is no bias or taint in any way whatsoever. I have never encountered the heresy you speak of.
    I find myself in fellowship with believers who are passionate about Jesus Christ, and who want others to know about the message and gift of salvation.
    I think NCMI can be summed up in the following phrase which I have found to be true:
    “Through loving God, and loving people, we will make disciples of all nations”

    God bless.

    Craig

    1. I am glad that you are in a NCMI church that is decent. I have never ever suggested that there are not churches that relate to NCMI that are not. The uncomfortable truth is that you church is a minority. Thanks for the comment

  17. We were with an NCMI church in Australia for a few years. During my time in the different cities I’ve lived in, I have seen many churches in many different denominations. It took me a while to find out why I was not at ease in the NCMI church.

    There was an over-arching feeling of legalism – that the leadership held more power over the congregation than is normal in most churches. It was subtle – that expectations were placed that were given as being a part of being a fully committed worshipper.
    It was not that the things that people were calling the members to do were wrong, but that people were doing it under compulsion rather than out of liberty.

    I also found it frustrating that it was far more closed in terms of playing with other denominations – recommended speakers and writers only came from their (small) denomination.

    In the end it was the controlling legalism that led us to leaving.

  18. Its a pity thisblog was written 5years back, i would agree that NCMI ministries has become cuktlike, its a bad game they play.

    1. Hi. Might have been written a long time ago but I am still here managing comments. Will post when I have something more to say

  19. You are very brave to begin a platform for discussion on this. Rob Rufus has begun a personality cult of gargantuan proportions. Having been a part of NCMI where it began in Durban and was to launch itself upon Australian shores some 20 years ago. My advice to “members” is dont suffer the indignity of being made a “leader”by false apostles in the first place. Run, Jesus is still King and has his arms open.

  20. I know very little about Rob Rufus, nor do I belong to an NCMI relating church, so I have little vested in this discussion. But, I am hearing a lot of slanderous allegations against both a movement, as well as an individual (who may or may not be a brother in Christ), but very little evidence.

    Could someone please point me in the direction of some evidence, perhaps a blog; an article; a recording; or anything really.

    Much love to the saints.

  21. The church is the body of Christ , and it’s the little foxes that spoils the vine, it’s the little comments that causes division and Christ says if there is one thing He hates its division, we must be carefully of causing division in the church , none of us is the same , God made us all different , that’s why we get different churches,
    The body consists of many parts , and each part plays its role ,
    Now this is the important part , if each part does what God has called him to do , as a member and then as a church , then the body of Christ will be unstoppable , for Christ longs to return to a body that’s perfect , but as long as there is strife and complaining in the body and the one part does not except the other part , then the body can’t work together as one, meaning division.
    Paul addressed this and said that the kingdom is not about drinking or eating , or…….circumcision or who you follow , it’s about what God called you and me to do, So if NCMI does not work for you , then don’t run them down and plant the seed of doubt into someone else’s life , just find a body where you fit in , and lets work together as a body , each one as he is called , hand , eye , feet , toe , or whatever need be
    John 5:20-24 Jesus prayer for his church before He was crucified,

    1. The thing is….. NCMI is anti-Catholic, anti Traditional, anti liturgical, anti non-Charismatic etc….

      Wish they could take their own advise because then it would be really nice 😀

      In the words of John Lennon (Imagine there no religion blah blah….)

      1. The body of Christ is meaning : people striving to be like Christ , to try and live like Christ , Christ said there is only one way of salvation, that is through me , Ask anything in the Name of Jesus , not Mary, There is only one God , and only to Him you shall pray , not pray to Mary. ask only God , not Mary
        So NCMI is not anti these , they welcome anybody , they just dont agree with their belief , and when they are being told the truth , (know the truth and truth shall set you free) , they get offended by the Truth which is Jesus ,” …I AM the truth the way and life…No one comes to the Father except through Me…, that is the difference They belief in Jesus as the saviour , not Mary
        Anti the other things is not salvation, like tradition, if there is a difference in tradition or “charasmatic then there will be a little bit of someone feeling out of place , because its not they way they do it, And therefore they should find there tradition or charasmatic somewhere else where they will seem to fit in , NCMI does not judge or condemn them , they just dont do it there way
        It
        mark 7:13 :Thus you nullify the word of God BY YOUR TRADITION that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

      2. Now, lets presume that NCMI is in fact as lost as the RCC. It is a possibility that is set out in Scripture:

        Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ —Matthew 7:21-23

        So it is apparent by this holy scripture that people will exist that by all apparence will be Christian, but because of “LAWLESSNESS” they will be cast out of the Lords company. What Law? What commands were given by Christ that shows the will of the Father:

        Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” —Matthew 22:36-40

        How will we know a servant of the Most High separately to those false prophets?

        Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.… —Matthew 7:15-17

        So now, seeing that this apparent church of God basically blackmailed the previous owner of this blog to give it up I am now forced to come to conclusions. The first time I read through the comments on this blog and read the horror stories I was convinced that they were somehow fabricated. Now that I have access to the details I can see that to my surprise they are not and that all comments have separate IP addresses and email addresses. So conclusions forthcoming, if these are truly the experiences of these UNIQUE people, what facts can be drawn when paralleled with Scripture? The only conclusion is this is a False Church that prophesies and heals in the name of the Almighty yet will one day be rejected. They are wolves in sheeps clothing seeking to destroy the children of God. Their fruit is rotten, their system is broken, they may call on creeds but to the Lord this means NOTHING because being a Christian is not about Creeds.

        It is a church that is Anti-God in practice, yet pro-God on paper. This is more scary than the Roman Catholics as it is more veiled.

        No judgement or condemnation mind you, just some facts.

    2. Hi Martin, do you know where the 1 million + dollars that went missing from coastlands is? Some little foxes would like to know. We are the foxy part of the body.

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