Some people might wonder why there is even a need for a blog like this. Some may say that a blog like this causes division in the church.
I have not created this blog to cause division, but rather to show Christians out there that are attanding NCMI relating churches that there are options.
There is a large community out there that are commited to showing the errors in the Pentecostal and Charistmatic movement, but unfortunitly NCMI has missed the critisms that have been placed forward.
There is however a need for balance, and I don’t believe that a church group like NCMI, having the track record that they have should be spared being held accountable to the Universal Church.
Take a look at these comments that appeared on one page a a Charistmatic blog called Spirit of God and you will see people hurt, and broken by NCMI
Anonymous said…
NCMI is a controlling, fringe pentecostal cult. Run for your life!
Sangiro said…NCMI leadership and members and those who think to join them:I joined the NCMI New Generation Church in Somerset West round about 2001. I was returning to a walk with God. I initially found a “fun” community with people full of character and a heart to follow and worship God. I still had some sinful issues and confided psychologist who was also an elder in the church. He went to the pastor Tapping to tell him about my sinful ways. After the service I was called by pastor Tapping to be told that I must change my sinful ways or leave the church as he, pastor Tapping will not allow, a spirit of lust to take hold of his church. So if you a sinner or are a Christian struggling with sin do you will not find a church that will walk with you till you find victory. Move on and find Christians who will with encouragement and prayer walk with you till you are victorious. NCMI is full of deceitful and people that show a character of unethical behavior and all in the name of God.
Logos said…NCMI is nothing less than control, manipulation and “authority” to the apostles and prophets (they received the “annointing”).
Speaking in (so-called) tongues…healing (sometimes you don’t get healed, but hey what’s the problem…).
Do not get involved with these apostle- and prophet-guys. Once they’ve got influence….first they get involved with the leaders of the church….you can say goodbye to your brothers and sisters. At least…if you have other theological thoughts about their Ephesians 4-doctrine.
Anonymous said…I agree with the previous comments. My experience with NCMI was horrible, even to the extent of causing long lasting emotional trauma.
I attended NCF church in Pietermaritzburg, SA, and witnessed emotional and sexual abuse. There was also a high level of financial abuse. The elders where un-educated, not having the slightest clue about theology.
I am glad I left, and was still able to heal my relationship with God, outside of a Charismatic environment.
I think it is clear. NCMI is causing proplems and like any other church, needs to be examined.
Although I don’t blame NCMI as a whole and still believe there is a lot of merit in the structure, I have a problem with the fact that people abuse their authority as leaders in the church. We have seen how Law and Grace oppose each other in the church and when the church is bound by a leader who enforces law…there is no hope. We left our church due to the lack of grace exercised by our leaders. Read about our experiences here : http://randomconjectures.wordpress.com
There is a reason for these abuses that go on in NCMI. I’m from Adelaide and attended Coastlands church for around two years. I saw all kinds of abuse; financial, doctrinal, spiritual, emotional.
Yes I agree with their lack of biblical knowledge -It’s disturbing. Recently the pastor of this congregation ran off with another women. Ok his father was a king pin in this organisation. Here is the crutch NCMI preaches and is set up on the Jethro Principle (like about 95 percent of western churches).
THIS IS AN UN-GODLY PRINCIPLE.
Read Exodus, it does not work because it’s not Gods principle. Alcida is more Godly in principles than any Hillsong, Edge, Seaton Family Centre, Paradise or any of the NCMI’s going around yes they worship the wrong God alcida that is and Yes its Islam or Satan, if it ain’t going to Jesus its going to satan.Well,in exodus after Moses uses the jethro principle he tells god to kill him.GOD says put the 70 elders in charge,there is a whole lot in that start your study check scriptue.Ill say as a fact any institutional church is un godly.JESUS tore down the vail so we all get god directly.jesus said dont lord over one another like the heathens.jethro pirimid scheme allows abuses because of its hierarkeal system know one in the top part of the pyrimid scheme is accountable in this life.And abuses like above happen,but i think the worst in the ncmi is financial abuse.The tythe is old testiment and was for the people to renue there covernment with god.The first church gave everything.thats enough for now take it easy check scripture.
Thank you for your testimony!
Blog offline.
I too attended NCMI in Johannesburg for 4 years. I will give them merit for helping me overcome a difficult stage in my life. However, I had some important and difficult decsions to make – whether to immigrate or if to buy a house. I found they tried to control and manipulate me into doing what they wanted under the guise of “God’s Will”. In addition, I fought with one of their deacons and elders and when I apologised, they refused to accept my apology. I do not doubt that many things are good at this church but some things I will agree to disagree. I found them very friendly at first but now believe that I have been ex – communicated.
Hi Lara, I too have been ex communicated.. but I think it was for the best anyway.. I remember the pastor saying that if you leave the country you could die… people who have ‘moved out of God’s will’ would die in some kind of tragedy’ for eg. if we moved to australia, we could die in a freak accidental mud slide..
We’ve left an NCMI-relating church. First off, the NCMI churches where we live are spread very thinly as is the apostolic team. Unlike the Apostle Paul and his companions, who lived among the people they shepherded for stretches of time, the Team people here jet in for a weekend then jet back home. This doesn’t allow for the Team people to really see what’s going on and make real corrections. The church we were in would put its best foot forward, and the apostolic guys would always spend the weekend telling us how great we were. But they didn’t stay long enough to really sniff out all the control and manipulation coming from the top down.
Yes, control. It was just shy of a cult. Imagine a small church where anyone with any kind of gifting is pressed into service and worked *very* hard to meet the agenda of “building.” You’re told that you don’t ever miss a meeting unless you’re in bed sick (as that is the Dudley way). You’re told that “Kingdom” means giving up family events, missing your kids’ birthdays and spending hours upon hours on weekends in “leadership” meetings.
I have a feeling that if Dudley himself knew what was going on in his name, he would be very angry.
And what’s the fruit? A church of burned out people who are so in-bred and in-grown that they have very little life outside of meetings, meetings, meetings. And yet, people are afraid to speak up and say something because they know they will be viewed negatively.
I am greatly saddened to hear these things as I have met Dudley and heard him. He would be very concerned.
Those people do not understand.
I am not sure where you live but it is interesting that when I read your post to my wife she thought I had written it. I have seen the same story over and over as I research.
If the fruit seems to be the same around the world then we have to say there must be something wrong with the model. I understand that for the most part the leaders are sincere, sacrificial and trying to live out the doctrine they have adopted. I appreciate the desire for fruitful churches and strong believers but you can not put fruit on a tree because it will always rot. It has to grow by being connected to the vine. In my view everything seems backwards.
Leaders are not supposed to whip people into shape they are supposed to protect people from religious bullies and phonies and declare their freedom. Jesus is the one building -HIS- Church. It is reassuring to know that it was Jesus who gave “the five fold” and it’s not the job of his church to manufacture it.
Outsider, we were looked down upon if we stayed home due to being sick, it was seen as having a lack of faith… I also made a point of not coming to the meetings on special days… I was not ‘devoted’ enough.. FAther’s day, mother’s day, birthdays were special days for me and I would not give in.. I made a point of staying home for my son’s birthday and everyone sms’d me,”is everything okay.” I wanted to scream coz even their ‘concern’ was manipulation.
Hi guys, i think it’s so tradgic that you have had such bad experiences with the ‘ncmi” relating churches.
However you will find that no church is perfect and no stream, denomination are perfect. But the values that the team guys have a very real and they believe in them, and i beleive in them.
They however will not control churches that are relating to them, and unfortunatlety some elders have gone wrong,but i don’t beleive that should be at the blame of the ncmi team.
I too strong convictions of God’s beautiful grace and are greatly saddend when i see people weighed down under the laws of man and what they think is proper. Whether they’re ncmi relating or not.
And i also know that ncmi aren’t the “be all and end all” of all christian streams and they will tell you that too, as they rub shoulders with other steams, and believe we are all one church not seperated by denominations, that’s exactly why they refuse to ba labelled as a denomination.
So instead of judging NCMI, stick to the real reason you had problems, and that probnlem was betwen you and the particular church you were in. NCMI are accountable to each other and to other teams in other “denominations/stream”
I guess all we can do is check the fruit, no fruit then it’s probably not a God thing. However with whatever short comings “ncmi” may have the fruit is in the growth, and it’s definately there, for every one person witha bad expereince theres probably a 100, with a great experience. Let’s not ride them off. as we wouldn’t ride off every other stream.
You’ll find people leading both wrongly and rightly in any denomination or stream, the point is to go where God sends you and don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
If you have a grievance with an Elder, you can go to another team guy, and tell them about it.
Other than that all you can do is forgive and pray for them. Don’t pull down people with your words. If you’re hurting there’s healing.
It’s possible for any church leader to mistreat, abuse and put people under law. Let’s not blame ncmi for thier short comings. They can get it wrong and then also make it right, as God is fukll of grace for us, let’s give the same grace to others.
Remember we all be together in heaven so we may as well forgive now.
Hi anon (and outsider),
I was involved in one of the pre-emminent ‘base churches’ in Australia for nearly 15 years. This church was lead by the former leader of the apostolic team for a time and by the current leader.
You seem to be suggesting that the abuses of NCMI are aberrations in particular churches and not connected to the teachings of NCMI and its leaders.
I disagree completely. The abusive system has grown directly from the seedbed of the teachings and beliefs of the NCMI leaders. These teachings, clearly laid out in manuals and the like, produce the culture of NCMI which, in turn, becomes the culture of the churches under its oversight.
It is a confused theology (if you could call it that) that teaches a mixture of grace and law. I think if you tried to follow the teaching consistently you would go schizophrenic!
I could write a book about the effects on the psyche of this exhausting, all consuming system. I am absolutely thrilled to be out of it and I would encourage others to leave also. I am finally living my life in freedom. I am free forever because of God’s Grace. All He requires of me is Faith. I am justified by Faith; not by being an NCMI superhero, attending many meetings, going overseas for more meetings, giving them all my money (where’s the building fund now guys?) or having a steely gaze, a trendy haircut and a South African accent. Ach shame.
Look, its not all bad, however. There are good, well meaning people and also some good beliefs and their general theology is quite orthodox. This is mixed with cult-like tendencies, though, so its quite a minefield, and simply too much for one short post.
Dear Anon, thank you for sharing this comment. I see what you are saying and trust me, I have forgiven my x church… but I have to warn because ncmi have some strange doctrine. While i agree that not all churches are perfect, there should be no room for error within the church in terms of doctrine. I cannot ever trust a pastor, I trust Jesus now and let Him show me the way because many churches don’t actually know the way. other issues never bothered me, but doctrine does. There should be no room for a mixed up doctrine and misinterpretation of the bible. I have grace, I want to see them delve into truth. It is love that tells the truth.
So basically what you are saying is this:
NCMI is orthodox; they have churches that relate to them that do not have to adhere to what NCMI believes. NCMI chooses to give these aberrant churches their coverings, but whenever there are reports of abuse within the church NCMI distances itself by saying that they do not control these churches. I hope what I am saying here is clear, and that I am interpreting you post correctly.
Is this in fact what you are saying? What did the Apostle Paul do when a church had fallen into problems? Simple, he did something about it but either writing letters or going to the churches himself. If there are in fact Apostles today is this not what the apostolic team from NCMI should also be doing?
I know that we are under grace, but the bible also instructs us to reject false teachers. Grace is between man and God and also should not be used as an excuse or a shield. That is one of the reasons I have a problem with Rob Rufus.
Hi, Concerned, no I’m sorry you are confused about what i have written, yes it’s correct that ncmi doesn’t control these churches they are invited into them. If the relationship is what it ought to be between the church and ncmi, then ncmi would know about any grievances, if the church was transparent with thier problems.
And yeah i have no doubt that they would correct them with the authority that an apostle would have. And i know that if theses elders were in sin and disrepute, without any intention of correction the ncmi team would have to break the relationship with them, that’s only fair.
If a church chooses to relate to ncmi, you would think it was because they believe in what ncmi also stands for, thus accepting upon themselves, by choice and in respect, to all the vision and values upheld by tyhe ncmi team. yes?
And yeah i agree that correction ought to come from ncmi in regards to matters of the churches, as Paul the apostle did, also, bringing correction and disciplne to the elders who choose to relate with them.
If “abuse” occurs, as however kind of abuse is defined here, I’m not sure, I assume some kind of controlling and domineering abuse, where the sheep are under a control mentality? Then it’s people like Rob Rufus who are gifted with bringing grace to a church under law, and teaching the eldership of these churches the same? Not to abuse the flock.
We have to trust that God brings to light such matters that are done in the dark and are unknown to the team, and God is full of justice, and will bring down false teachers, abusive pastors etc….
No, grace is no excuse or reason for sinning deliberately and continually without remorse or regard for others, but it’s there when we do fall, Rob preaches this.
And it’s true! If we never read our bibles or witnessed ever again, God still loves us and we’re still saved by His amazing grace, and because of this we are spurred on further to do more for our Wonderful King, because we love Him sooo much because he first loved us, even before we accepted the grace in Jesus.
That’s the true beauty of God. He can stretch out his patient loving hand to those of us who can’t just perform and act like we’re great people who never sin. He can forgive, renew and transform us, in a way that no human in all thier widom and rules can.
It’s for this reason I can see why religious people hate the grace teaching, cos it means that all thier work means nothing and anyone, can be saved, loved and looked upon as beautiful to god, not cos of thier performance and works but because he see’s christ in them, and i know i wouldn;’t trade that revelation, for all the riches of this world.
Sorry but grace is my shield, i admit my wrongs and my accidental sins, cos that’s what they are accidental, i don’t go out of my way to sin, for the sake of it or because i know God’s grace is there. Instead anyone with a treu revelation of Grace doesn’t sin on purpose to annoy people, God know’s what they’re doing and thier motives.
So yeah i guess Grace is between God and his people, cos it’s no one else’s business, unless someone else’s sin is corrupting the sheep around them, then yes we deal with them,as in the bible, cast them out of your midst.
Rob is no false teacher.
I’m sorry you must have had an extraordinary experience with your particular church and had no kind of closure, with whatever happened to you.
As with some of the others who’ve written here. Its unfortaunate and i feel for you who have expeirinced any kind of control and law oppression. But i can tell you that that’s not what the team stand for.
If it were then my experience of them and thousands of other churches would be similar, but all have after 8 years, is grace. No sense of pressure or control, no one tells me off if i can’t make it to church one sunday cos of family doo, or other reason, No one makes me pay tithes, or makes me serve, or makes me read my bible and turn up to every meeting. I have my share of church splits and disagreements between elders, and i’ve even seen after a couple of years and a break, them reconciled, because everyone who loves God makes the effort to resolve issues among themselves, even if it doesn’t work out.
The closer you know some of the guys who are on the team, the more you know thier heart, the more you know thier heart and see the fruit around them, good fruit that is all the fruit of the Spirit which is peace, joy, love, faithfulness, kindness and goodness, then the more know it’s God among it.
If these fruits are of no existence or evedient among your own church, then yeah, get out!! Bit i see all these fruits whne i speak and relate with people from around Australia, in them and around them.
Thoughb this may not be the case everywhere, this has to our prayer. That this will be the fruit in every church, not just ncmi related one’s, as i embrace all. But know NCMI is for me at this time in my life till God tells me otherwise and i move on.
Anon, I would love to see your view on how a church should behaive? Quite frankly what bothers me is doctrine! There is not such thing as a perfect church as we are all different people and we all have different opinions but doctrine should be perfect, there is no room for error. Many who prophecy within the ncmi, prophecy incorrectly and the bible says that there is no mixture or room for error. God cannot take mixture.. mixed doctrine is a failed doctrine.
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
2 Cor. 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted– you may well put up with it. (you will have to endure it, or you wear it beautifully, and some do).”
Gal 1:6-9: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
Stumbled upon this site and for heaven’s sake, most of you need to get a life. How’s this for a word from an NCMI “member”? – if you don’t lighten up the stench of death over you will drive non-believers from you. And what’s with all the non-de-plumes – everybody so scared of big, bad NCMI that you cant sign your moans with your real name?
My goodness Brendan Magill – and they accuse NCMI people of being arrogant, agressive and bible-bashing! I have also heard they are sarcastic…but I don’t believe it.
What stench of death? Wow, that is a real statement.
By the way, my name is Mark Morcom of Pietermaritzburg, South Africa. I used to attend NCF church. I was scared of mentioning my name when I started my blog, but now I don’t think I am anymore.
I have explained the reasons for this blog and will not again. Thanks for you comment.
I think we need to have the freedom to be able to express concern,otherwise how can we support one another, and pray for one another.
Dear concerned-
If you’re all so frightened about stumbling into a church that may have a doctrine issue, perhaps ya’ll should just live in a box somewhere!
If you never trust again, well, that’s a sad waste of what could have been a very usefull and productive christian walk.
Much better to step out of the boat and get wet than never step out at all!
What are you afraid of?? That you may actually find somewhere an actually enjoy a grace filled life??…get over it! Move on with your life and quit ragging on our fellow christians… i tend to agree with Brendan Magill!
It was stupid of me to think that i could make a difference on this blog when clearly you have forgiveness issues…because if you’d truly forgiven you’d rip down this ridiculous blog and get a life….people like you only know how to criticise and pull down!
You think you’re helping people when really all you’re doing is giving unbelievers a reason not to go anywhere near christanity- Heck! if we cant rise above these issues, why would we expect non beleivers to find any of this attractive.
This my friend this will get you absolutely no where!
My prayer is that you find it in your heart to let go, find a church that your happy in and grow up in maturity.
NCMI is fantastic!!! Your experience, if even true, is a minority! So be a critic and be miserable in the process! You dont want to cause division??? ppffff whatever, the proof is in this blog that you are, don’t think that just cos you say “this is not to cause division” that it doesn’t, the shear act of this blog itself DOES!
You are trying to avert others form NCMI! Shame on you! To all the people out there who look into NCMI…I suggest you try it for yourself and judge for yourself what is GOOD!
Job 34:3-5 (New International Version)
3 For the ear tests words
as the tongue tastes food.
4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;
let us learn together what is good.
Dear Getting there:
That galations scripture is Paul talking about the gospel of grace-Jesus- and saying let them be accursed if they recieve any other doctrine thats not the gospel of grace AND of Jesus finished work…
Why the heck would you even post that as an attack?!
Boo hoo someone may have even prophesied wrongly…that’s what you have a brain for! and the bible so you can line things up with the word for yourself!!
Boo hoo “doctrine should be perfect” Well dah.. the doctrine is but not all preachers are! Gee what happened to simply going to your elder and ASKING him what he meant??? Do we just go around like this, and blog it everywhere??
Stop criticising every person who ever steps out and makes a mistake!! At least they did and who are you to judge thier heart behind it?!! Get over it!
Are those scriptures supposed to correct me??? I love the word, i live in grace, and my love for JC! Those scriptures don’t make me feel bad!! I agree with them.
Don’t think for a second that feel i’m lost or gone off with a “wierd myth like” teaching.
The gospel is simple friend- Jesus = forgivness = grace= forever! No matter what we do or who we are! I am no perveter of the gospel of Jesus! and the ncmi team aren’t either!! Do you even know any of them?? Or do you just listen to rumour, or take one line of thier preaching and skew it to your perverted liking!?
It’s critical people like you guys who seem to think they have some liscence to just be nit picky at everything!! You’re the kind of people who are always suspicious and waiting for someone to even slip a little then you say “ha!! see these people are wrong!” and feel so darn fantatsic in the process, Who are you!!!! HAVE YOU EVER MADE A MISTAKE!!
Can you even visit a church without finding error? Good luck friend, it will never happen, (cos you are always looking for it), till we’re in heaven where things are perfect!!
I’ll be seeing you there. xoxoxo Lucky for us Grace is perfect and can even cover this nonsense, that’s also the beauty of it.
PS as for “getting there’s” question on how i think a church should behave???
Well not like back stabbing wolves!!! BUT rather
As it says- people will know them by thier love for eachother.
John 13:34-36 (New International Version)
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Too bad there’s no love produced here
I apologise to anyone who reads this blog while finding thier way in christianity or looking into christianity– this is not the ideal, but it happens, unfortunatley even among the people who should be representing grace, forgivness and love.
Don’t let this mish mash of crap, (including mine) deture you from God, he is love, and he want’s to extend a grace to you…that is rich and wonderfully blessed with every good thing..seek Him and you will find the truth!
This is an example of unproductiveness- and i’ll TRY NOT be on it anymore. Even as much as it is tempting to defend NCMI because i love them as people.
By the way “concerned or Mark” if you like to criticise Rob Rufus’s teaching, perhaps pick up a copy of Joseph Prince’s “Destined to Reign” you’ll love picking that apart BECAUSE IT’S JUST AS AWESOME AS ROB’S GRACE TEACHING!
Even with all the rubbish…lot’s of love Anonymous xoxoxox
You say that if I am frightened about stumbling into a church that has doctrine issues then I should go live in the box. But we a commanded by God through scripture to test all things!
1 Thessalonians 5:21
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good
1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I don’t have to attend a church that teaches error as I believe NCMI does.
You also say that if I never trust again it would be sad, but I do trust!!!! I trust the Lord my God with all my heart. I have also formed relationships with Christians where I live and here on the net. People who hold to the truth and the truth is preserved in them through the Spirit. Many are ministers and pastors. Some persecuted within their churches by the insurgence of the Charismatic theological thought. Many dealing with churches loosing funding and closing down or splitting because they where not willing to compromise the truth
You say that it was stupid of you to think that you could make a difference on this blog. Did you expect me to recant and close the blog? Do you think that I created this blog out of some desperate need of attention and that it was just a passing phase in my life? You point out that I have forgiveness issues, well that is just not true. I have forgiven the people that I have issues with and even share a property with one of them. I am under no obligation not to point out to others the very reasons why I had to forgive them in the first place.
You also point out that this blog will chase unbelievers from Christianity, but again that is not true. This is a Christian blog, NCMI is not the only way and people can come to the Father there is another thing, say JESUS!!!!!!! For you to think that criticism of a specific aberrant group is going to chase un-believers away from Christianity is arrogant. Should we, like the Catholic missionaries in Africa, mix truth with un-truth all in the sake of winning converts? What is chasing people away from God is the hurtful practices of churches like NCMI that go un-abated all under the guise of Grace and Autonomous Relationships.
You point out that my experience, if even true is the minority. No, your experience (NCMI being fantastic) is the minority, there are just too many in these churches whose world views are blinded by legalism and fanaticism to see what is really going on. I also don’t cause division. It is biblical to divide the bad from the good, the lies from the truth, the un-Godly from the Godly.
Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
2 Corinthians 6:14-17
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.
“””Shame on me for trying to avert others from NCMI!”””” I feel no shame, and yes I am trying to avert people from NCMI, to other God-fearing, bible believing churches that will show them the fullness of the Grace we have from our Lord Jesus Christ. Not the grace given among men and the lenience given to Heretics like Todd Bentley.
I agree with Job 34:3-5. Discernment is not a sin and this is what this site is here to do. It is a resource that has been added to offer an apposing view to what NCMI presents to the world un-abated. It is simply a resource.
I will let Getting there respond to her part.
God bless you and know that I have no hate or bitterness in my heart for you, but I try my hardest, fighting the flesh, to Love what is good and hate what is evil. I cannot love what the NCMI model is doing to the church.
it really doesn’t matter what anon thinks. I am not here to impress you anon.. ncmi messed me up big time and that’s the thing.. but Jesus is king and I trust Jesus. I am not perfect nor do i have all the answers but one thing I do know is Truth is truth a as Concerned has clearly stated our stance on things. Use discernment and pray for God to guide you. it is not just one church that has disrupted and put a stumbling block in the lives of those who want truth.. it’s many and that is what concerns me most.. if it was just one church, then I would probably let it go, but this is not the case. It’s many churches teaching heresy and hurting sincere believers.
As you quoted concerned——” Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
2 Corinthians 6:14-17
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership has righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.”
Don’t you know that this is referring to unbelievers and believers…not to separate from those in Christ Jesus!! Do you know that even if – preachers teach wrong doctrine, that even if they still believe upon the name of Jesus for their salvation, they too will still meet us in heaven?
Why then would you attempt to use these scriptures to try and twist and apply them to NCMI members?
They are just as saved as you!! You’ll be seeing all of us and the team guys in heaven…do you know that GRACE is the reason so?
I think you have a massive problem with the Grace message!
You don’t know what you stand for!
On one hand – you say that
“they are legalistic and to stay away” –
and then in the next breath you attack the Grace message which they preach (which apposes the legalistic law mentality) and still say
“stay away from ncmi their doctrine is twisted!”
What are you for friend- Grace or Law?
You are very wishy washy….
“Getting there” and “Concerned”, I’m sure, have a relationship with Christ, I don’t doubt that, but you are wrong in attacking people like Rob Rufus.
Will you attack Joseph Prince too??
I feel for you, I think you have major issues in understanding grace, if you really knew it, why would you be on here pulling down the very people who spread the Grace message, which is simply the gospel that Paul preached, the finished work of the cross, why?
Concerned- Do you believe that no matter what you DO, you can not earn your way to heaven, do you trust in the finished work of the cross?
Getting there said “Use discernment and pray for God to guide you. it is not just one church that has disrupted and put a stumbling block in the lives of those who want truth. ”
Anon says to that –
So you blame the actual NCMI Team for all the problems?
That’s the same as blaming the whole Catholic Church for all the sexual Abuse!
As many Catholics would be and are horrified at these crimes- and they try desperately to show that that’s not what the Catholic Church stands for!
Do you not think that millions of NCMI peop’s that know truly what we stand for would not JUMP TO THE DEFENSE of their values and character?
You are a Character assassinator! Rob Rufus has set people free by preaching the truth of the Grace message, and also people like Joseph Prince. I will never understand why you would attack such men.
At the end of the day you can say what you like. It’s a free world, but you never stop the Grace message, that you seem to have such a big problem with!
Grace is spreading like wildfire among the churches. And people are finally seeing how much their “ABBA father” loves them, and holds them no longer under law, but sees them as Holy, righteous and forgiven fully, because Jesus paid the price for us, forever NO MATTER WHAT!
Getting there said “it really doesn’t matter what anon thinks. I am not here to impress you anon. ncmi messed me up big time and that’s the thing, but Jesus is king and I trust Jesus”
Anon says-
NCMI and it’s values, didn’t mess you up friend, may be that particular church did? Perhaps they hadn’t grasped the grace teaching, where as I can tell you the NCMI team has!
So instead, like i said previously, stick to your grievances with the people that may have hurt you, and stop using your hurts as a reason to blame the whole NCMI as a team. Cos i can tell you there are churches relating with NCMI who are loving and wonderful…perhaps ya’ll should look around?
Concerned said “You also point out that this blog will chase unbelievers from Christianity, but again that is not true. This is a Christian blog, NCMI is not the only way and people can come to the Father there is another thing, say JESUS!!!!!!!”
Anon says-
Well DAH! Don’t you know from my previous writings here that i know NCMI isn’t the BE ALL AND END ALL of Christianity! Perhaps you’re not paying much attention to what i write? A christian Blog, there’s nothing Christian about this!
And of course anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved- whether they become a part of the Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Charismatic, Baptist churches…..whatever!
It’s not your attack on NCMI that will put people off… It’s your attack on anyone in the faith in general! Do you think i wouldn’t find any attack, on any of God’s people, (especially coming from a Brother) to be a total turn off to unbeliever’s?
I would feel just the same as if it were Catholics ragging on Anglicans!
So yeah i still believe this Blog is a huge toxic TURN OFF!
Getting there said “It’s many churches teaching heresy and hurting sincere believers”
So many churches may have been heretic, but that’s not the NCMI Stance! They are not heretics, they may have had thoer mistakes, but they are not heretics!
HERESY?! Is the message of grace heresy too you?
All Grace ever does is glorify Jesus, and show how man is utterly helpless to please God except through the Gift of Jesus who cleanses us from ALL SIN!
Heresy is when anything other than what the bible teaches is taught as truth!… that Jesus is not the way the truth and the life, that he is not our salvation, that he is not the Son of God, that he did not die for our sins and we’re still under the law!
To say NCMI are heretics is a complete LIE! That Rob is a heretic, is LIE!
“Concerned”- Again you have a problem with the Grace message- are you preaching that we have to earn our way to God, and that we are not simply forgiven and accepted to God through Christ? Do you not know we are new covenant people? We are not bound by the laws and rules of the old?
If you are about to respond by answering “of course not anon, i believe in the finished work of the cross” then stop and think why am i criticising the men who preach it?
I know you’re not here to impress me, I’m looking to be impressed.
If it’s really true that your church at the time was legalistic about turning up at every meeting then, sure, you have a reason, to have a prob with that church, but no excuse for attacking, the men who preach Grace or the NCMI team!
‘Concerned”, I can imagine that you feel no sense of shame, for what this venomous blog is, perhaps you have no sense of right and wrong either?
Before labelling NCMI as a cult perhaps you should look up the meaning in the dictionary first? And compare it to the values of NCMI….They are no cult.
Concerned wrote “When I left I was angry at myself for being a follower. I wished that I could be a leader. It was only later that I realized that there is nothing wrong with being a follower, all though I believe that letting people make all the decisions in your life is wrong. Jumping up and down, spinning around, mass tongues, waving flags and even stage diving. These are things that anyone that has ever attended an NCMI relating church (or most NCMI relating churches) would have seen.
I loved it and saw it as a church that had found freedom in religion. These people, I thought where so hyped for God and where doing Him some great service by performing these theatrics.
Every service I would eagerly head to church excited to experience this freedom. I would hear people speak in tongues, I would hear prophecy, and I would hear what I thought to be God speaking into my own heart.
It was only later on when I started having conflict with some of the elders that the scales fell off my eyes. I started to see how everything that was happening was nothing more than experience and had very little, if not nothing to do with the bible.”
-Anon says-
So now you have a problem with people being happy in Christ and worshipping Him fully, then I guess you would also be like King David’s wife who was angry with him for dancing practically naked to God, with such Joy! Read psalms, revelations anything! – Were people not leaping, shouting, and playing their instruments loudly and triumphantly- My friend it’s very sad that you’d pick on such an expression! – Nothing to do with the Bible!! Which bible are you reading?
Luke 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets”
1 Peter 1: 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
LEAP if God is for leaping, is that not the same as jumping for joy?
Do have children “concerned?” If so does it not give you joy when they dance for fun?
We’re filled with an inexpressible Joy! So we dance and leap and jump because our whole being is an expression of Joy!
Well our dancing brings our father in Heaven joy also. Just as much as if you were dancing on the inside!
God says Joy all the time! Is dancing not an expression of Joy- how sombre, how boring it must be to have your bleak view of God and worship! I bet when you picture God you see an old man with a stick ready to whack you, a God that has no fun!
PPfff…God is the most fun anyone will ever have. And our joyful expressions are beautiful to Him.
Concerned also wrote “I was also told that I believed in heretical doctrine because I was inclined to Calvinism”
“Calvinism!” well yes friend no wonder there may have been conflict- Once saved always saved. What were doing? Earning your eternal salvation and telling others to also?
- In practice, Calvinists teach sovereign grace primarily for the encouragement of the church because they believe the doctrine demonstrates the extent of God’s love in saving those who could not and would not follow him, as well as squelching pride and self-reliance and emphasizing the Christian’s total dependence on the grace of God.
- In the same way, sanctification in the Calvinist view requires a continual reliance on God to purge the Christian’s depraved heart from the power of sin and to further the Christian’s joy.
It’s the second paragraph is what I have a H U G E problem with ! So in this doctrine Calvinists nicely fluff you up with Grace and then in the next breath say, but you better be good to keep it!
Sorry wrong! We do not have to continually purge and confess every day everything we do wrong! Christ was the full atonement! Tell me friend are you always worried about losing you salvation if you don’t “fly straight” 100% of the time?
Every time you sin do you go through some ridiculous process of repentance and sorrowfulness before coming confidently before you Father through the grace of Jesus?
Or do you simply acknowledge, that wasn’t right, “whoops”, and continue with your walk in the Lord, because you understand what Jesus has done for you? Well you can!
Do you not understand that he loves you intimately even when you stuff up, and you can still walk with Him?
Again do you know what you are attacking about these churches- is it the legalism bout going to meetings?
Or the Grace that even if you don’t go to meetings, God still loves you and your salvation is secure?
I’m confused what do you people actually stand for?
Concerned said in a reply to Sam “I have in essence stopped being a buddy of the Lords and have become a slave to Him. This is my hope at least”
Anon says-
“A slave of God, and not a buddy…. and that’s your hope?” Is that all you can hope for in this life is to possibly be a slave to God? You sound like you don’t even know if you are good enough to even be God’s slave! Well because of Jesus YOU ARE MADE TO BE MORE THAN A SLAVE!
Galatians 4:6
because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
Galatians 3:26
you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
Friend we’re are sons and daughters, before we are servants, and we serve Him on the basis that we know we are His children first and foremost! – I pity you for believing you’re a slave to God- we are slaves to righteousness, not to God. We are automatically righteous; we can’t help it we are slaves to it and no longer slaves to Sin. Why? Because of Jesus!
-
Romans 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness
I only hope one day you’ll see how fun and free you can truly be in Jesus, and give up on picking on your dancing brothers and sisters! Do they pick on you for not dancing? Does God care if you dance or don’t dance?
The whole argument reminds of 1 Cor 8, over food offered to idols, can you find the similarity? Food is trivial as is a person Dancing or not dancing at Church! God has made everything good!
All music types and genre’s, all dancing, all singing, all instruments, are Holy when used to honour God!
Be F R E E friend, that’s what Jesus hung on the cross for. He L O V E S you! So why be bound up with such rubbish!
I summing up- NCMI churches aren’t all bad- We in Australia have it really good- let the team have time to sort out the kinks, the churches aren’t perfect- but there are heaps that are absolutely fantastic, with excellent loving leaders and happy people- not bound up under laws and regulations or scorned for not being at meetings.
So quit with the NCMI Bashing!
xoxoxox Anon in Australia
I will rather befriend a prostitude, a stripper than be a friend with someone who preaches another Jesus! I will go to a strip club and make myself their friend than go to a church that preaches a false Jesus! there are warnings in the bible about those who preach another Jesus…
you are right anon “you have all the answers’ and you really have it all worked out. You know what.. I don’t have all the answers but I know that God is HOly, Mighty and Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it and I also know that false preaching and teaching is horrible.. the devil himself comes masquerading as an angel of light. People can seem to be well meaning but they end up ruining people’s lives preaching nonsence like generational curses, soul ties and mumbo jumbo health wealth gospel blah blah blah.. teaching that you can boss angels around and that you are ‘elite’ and above everyone.. teaching that the likes of Todd bently has power to transfer an annointing.. well anon, That is Not the gospel!!!!!
When Ncmi get back to Jesus and real gospel, then fine but right now many are teaching lies!
I am reluctant to answer your post because it is so long, I would not know where to start.
This is what I will say. I hope you walk close to the Father while you spend out your days at NCMI. I hope you find blessings and I hope that you through the church can do well in your service to God.
This blog is obviously not going to change, so I ask you please to stop your attack. I wish no quarrel with you as a congregant, but my quarrel is with the church.
God Bless you.
Then we are in some agreement “getting there”. We both agree that Jesus didn’t come into the world to Condemn it but give grace and save it. I don’t have all the answers “GT” I’m just passionate about the grace of Jesus. I am not totally familiar with Tod bentley and his teachings, i have heard of him though. So i can’t argue or have an opinion of him.
I don’t know about transferring annointing or that stuff, but i know the Holy Spirit and God’s annointing. I choose to stick to the simplest of truth’s that jesus is the good news, and what the gospels teach about right living in the new testament, post Cross. I don’t preach another Jesus, friend.
Even if Tod is wierd…NCMI are not wierd. I may even find the things done a bit wierd and choose myself not to agree with it all, but i also know that if i don’t like what he does i wont be excommunicated or scorned for thinking otherwise, that’s the freedom i have (to accept or not accept the teaching of Tod Bentley) whether I’m in NCMI or not. The fact that i can have this freedom of difference is why i stick to them.
Tod Bentley isn’t on the translocal team of ncmi anyway, he is with Fresh Fire Ministires, so why are you upset?
NCMI may have a realtionship with this man, i dunno? But even if they do there’s nothing wrong with building relationships with other ministries, you never know what you may learn from eachother, NCMI has thier head on straight, and are unlikely to be swept away into wierd doctrine or anything like that.
Concerned,
I also find it intriguing that you have no rebuttles to the things i pointed out in my last entry “GT”…..hmm.
realise my entry was so long i just had to point out alot in response to previous blog entries here. I just hate when scriptures are twisted out of thier true context, to suit the motives of people who endeavour to push thier ill agendas.
Anonymous/Anon Again – so far all you have done is parrot the NCMI company line with a good dose of venom. You sign your posts with “love” and “xoxox” but there is NONE of that in what you are saying.
Two people on all these posts: Brendan Magill and Anonymous are involved in NCMI. I notice they have been openly aggressive and demeaning in their attitude towards “non-NCMI folk” (as the jargon goes). Please guys – if you are going to stick up for NCMI, don’t validate all the bad things that everyone is saying about them!
I was HEAVILY involved in a quite well-known Australian NCMI church for 10 years. I was there during the “Rob years” and afterwards. I will say one thing and one thing only – I left because I could not continue attending and keep telling myself I believed in the bible. All the other stuff you guys already know from personal experience.
I have nothing personal against any one person, am still friends with a number of people who are involved with NCMI and plan to stay friends with them, and respect Dudley Daniel immensly. The fact that NCMI has gone off the rails was a sad but inevitable occurrence. It has taken me years to get over what was done to me spiritually, but I am grateful that in spite of this, I left in MUCH better shape than when I came. This was due to genuine people within “the ranks” (more jargon) who I built genuine friendships with, who loved me and helped me through my darkest time to date, and whom I am still in relationship with.
NCMI is doctrinally errant on a number of levels, but so is most of the rest of the church. People who have been hurt by NCMI need proper recognition and care as it is a serious issue that should be addressed. If you are happy in NCMI – that’s great, you’re doing better than I ever did!
Anon, I will agree on one thing you said – we will all be together in eternity, so let’s keep it non-personal so we don’t have to spend the rest of eternity avoiding each other in corridoors.
Brendan Magill – I am not afraid to post my name – but maybe you should think twice before putting yours next to such an outburst!
My answer was short because your post was an obvious attack. It was also a ramble. This is not the place for such an argument. Your point has been made and I have approved every single one of your posts. I will however be willing to enter into conversation with you via email. Would this be ok?
Dear Concerned,
Wow! The guts to write this blog! I do think that Rob Rufus and NCMI are 2 different issues.
I am afraid that I concur with you on the abuse, control etc and that is my experience across SA, UK and USA. Nothing of Aus but hey that’s where the headquaters are. I do accept that there are people who still carry the NCMI banner and who do not exercise this but I don’t know for how much longer they will carry the banner. I also accept that there may be a few places where control has not set it … but consider yourself bless and in the majority.
Regarding Rob … he’d probably agree with much of what you write. He is all for sound doctrine and the gospel of grace (without works for salvation or keeping it) and the fruit of that message. He presents this very clearly that God hates sins but that the cross has adequately dealt with your sin. He over and over again has said its not a licence to sin but that grace is empowering over sin because the strength on sin is the law. Get the law off people and they get free. He also wants people free.
My guess is that you disagree with charismatic theology??? Well, who has the true doctrine???
Rob does not agree I’m afraid – I did email him my issues. He clearly stated that he is very pro NCMI. Thank you for your comment
oops! typo! make that the minority!
Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog.
Cheers! Sandra. R.
I can’t believe I finally made it through all these comments.
But I have one question that doesn’t seem to be answered but it referred to often, what doctrine did you hear / was taught that was incorrect? Can you help me by naming those in point form? I get lost in all the paragraph after paragraph. Thanks, I appreciate it.
That’s easy! The Holy Scriptures! Follow them and you will not err.
Hi I used to attend NCF in PMB and while I never heard of sexual abuse (???) I think there is a level of control and law and grace mixed. I used to be a home group leader so I was in leadership there. My husband and I sold our house and bought land to build and got told by our over seeing elders that we should have come to them first! Really???? As if I have no common sense of brain of my own. Also when we wanted to get married they tried to act like they had rights to give my hand in marriage and not my father! They even phoned my father to “check” if he’d given my husband permission to marry me!! SERIOUSLY WTH is that??? if not control? Also when we were immigrating to Aussie they refused to pray for us and refused to even tell the church we were leaving, they did this with a number of our friends. We are called to Australia and not to NCMI and because of that we according to them have heard God wrong but since being here and moving into ministry I can assure you we have not heard God wrong. I am grateful for the teaching I received there a lot of it was sound and is standing me in good stead now BUT I have to say there is a lot of control there……..just didn’t realize it was so wide spread WOW! Oh btw LOVING Rob Rufus atm
Well, chances are it was the same church I used to attend and your experiences sounds very similar to what we witnessed.
When once attending a NCMI church in a foreign country, I noticed there was a lot of control over the people in attendance there. After informing the leadership at this NCMI church of my missionary endeavors I was about to embark on, they had their lieutenants watch my every movement. For example, after a church service in conversation with a member, the leaders would attempt to listen to what I was saying. Whatever I was saying, I thought in the beginning, genuinely interested them until I quickly discovered was not the case but the very opposite. I would notice that their spies would follow me to whoever I was conversing with after a church service, and stand at hearing distance. This became quite obvious and kind of ridiculous. Those who had been at this church for long obviously never minded the control – like they found security in this I found – instead of in the Lord. A lot of the members there were tarred with the same brush as the leadership; kind of like birds of a feather flock together – at service to the hierarchy.
Upon entering that church could be sensed exclusiveness, and humility and meekness grossly lacking. It was not long before I could see through the pretense.
A lot gets spoken about the abuse of peoples finance by some “leaders” of the Church, but what about the proud exclusiveness and control being exercised. This is very subtle and greatly damaging. This proud exclusiveness and control I found taking place in an NCMI church I attended.
NCMI’s apostles and prophets, I have discovered, are not all properly grounded theologically, are shallow spiritually, and do not always teach the truth. They take a spiritual truth, expand on it and take it to another level and then think they have the answer to new revelation knowledge. Sticking to the basics of Scripture is imperative – one can never go wrong with this.
Ministering in Africa and having experienced the humility and meekness the africans have, is easy on being able to express oneself, sensing their love and acceptance of you as a brother or sister in Christ.
Neil
Thank you for this
I was involved with a NCMI start up in Canada. The group I was involved with like to use a short form version of the bible. Anything to do with sin, self judgement, punishment of believers, confession of sin etc. was simply ignored. Everyone attending was assumed to be a sinless, perfected saint and anyone who joined them was expected to have all the gifts of the Spirit or else you just don’t cut it as a believer. Of course you had to speak in tongues and to prophecize and tell everyone these amazing dreams you had. If you criticized or brought in scripture that contradicted anything, you were simply called a legalist!!! Frankly, they were all talk and no action. It’s like Rob Rufus ministry in Hong Kong. Check it out. All these great white folks who don’t even have the respect to learn to speak the language of the city then look down on Asians and non-whites. They just preach to the con-verted. Like when it came to forming a real church in our city, after preaching this great sermon on Christ provides everything, the so-called great white leader leader opted for some cheap room rented twice per week so he could jet set around without any responsibility, yet he could tell others how God will take care of everything. I have never felt such a sense of complete and total betrayal in that place. The people are so brainwashed and afraid that if they say anything contracictory, no will talk to them. It’s pathetic really.
I am sure that if all of us were standing next to someone in a sickbed we would all forget our differences and pray.
Sounds simple but it works.
True, but after we had prayed we might want to know why they are sick and how we can help and how we can prevent others becoming sick.
To grow and move forward requires honesty, discussion and thinking.
From experience John, an NCMI person would only pray for the sick person if: 1) They were approved to be prayed for by the elders 2) the sick person had attended a LTT and had a understanding of why they were being prayed for 3) the sick person did not give the elders the impression that he was sick for ulterior motives 4) the sick person had submitted his financial statements to the eldership.
You’re experiences are completely and utterly contrary to the church I attend currently. IF that is indeed what is happening at this church then talk to some elders of another NCMI church b/c I’ve never even heard of such a thing.
Talking to the elders of other churches does not always work. We have had experiences where we garner a pastors support by not mentioning the NCMI affiliation part of a church we are complaining about. As soon as we drop the coin on the “Relating to NCMI” thing, they turn tail and defend.
I am however not suggesting people do not try
john, on July 19, 2011 at 7:22 am said:
I am sure that if all of us were standing next to someone in a sickbed we would all forget our differences and pray
This is direct from the Rob Rufus website …. and I am not pulling your leg:
“Three people with back pain had one leg shorter than the other and as we prayed their shorter leg grew out to the same length as the longer one. ”
http://ccihk.com/en/testimonies/101-eyesight-restored?catid=6%3Atestimonies
It is of interest that Rob Rufus preaches the gospel of Grace, yet if you read your scriptures carefully there is no Gospel of Grace …. there is the Gospel of God’s Grace, there is the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of His Son …. but there is no Gospel of grace. And this is where the such personal ministries like Rob Rufus and NCMI go off base … they preach another gospel … and nobody preaches another Gospel better than Rob Rufus …”If all you can give me is head knowledge from the Bible then don’t come near me – I don’t want to be associated with you.” … translation: if anything in scripture contradicts the Gospel of Rob Rufus, then he doesn’t want to hear from you ….
Interesting what you say here. I know that Rob and NCMI are using Grace as a licence to do whatever is new under the sun, but I never looked at it this way. I have some reading to do!
You know someone once told me that people will forgive you for anything except for being insincere. That is the experience I had with NCMI. They preach grace and grace and more grace and yet when it comes to insisting on the facts of the gospel and living by the Word of God as revealed by the Gospel of God’s grace, you get labelled and legalist, shunned and expelled.
I have this comment for NCMI, especially Rob Rufus who preaches Spirit drunkeness and on demand miracles:
Acts 2.4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
The initial church could speak in tongues so that each individual listening could hear the Word of God in their own heart language.
OK … so can Rob Rufus preach the gospel in Chinese? .. cantonese, manadarin or any other Chinese dialect? So how is it he can perform healing miracles and yet he cannot even preach the world according to the original church who he claims to represent?
By the way, there is a simple and complex answer to this … but I will stick with the script …
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves…..Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,….Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
We are living in the end times age and if we fix our our eyes on the cross we will not be deceived. The deception comes from those who preach another gospel that cause us to take our eyes off of Christ and the Word that He speaks directly to each one of us.
I recently started attending an NCMI church. I never heard of them before and I quite frankly don’t care about “labels”. I’ve been a born again believer for 16 years and I don’t go to church to find Christ or to walk out my “calling”. I go to church to worship God and fellowship with like minded believers. The hope is that they are also serving the physical and spiritual needs of the community. However, if they aren’t that doesn’t impact my role and calling to reach out to my community and do what I can to help those less fortunate. I believe that there are many people on this site as well as many other sites out there that have “gripes” abou their churches are people that probably lack self-confidence and haven’t the maturity to stand on their own two feet in Christ alone. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to be hurtful but more of an experiential observation. You find with some people that they are “abused” in many different organizations.
I’m not talking about real physical or sexual abuse. If that is occurring call the COPS! Run, GET HELP, DON’T STAY!
I’m talking about a percieved abuse of time, resources and efforts. People that are so-called taken advantage of are often times people that aren’t volunteering because they believe in what it is that they are volunteering for but are looking for acceptance or meaning in their life. When they’ve burnt themselves out on meetings, practices, missions work and ministry they then turn around and lash out at the very thing they were trying to find acceptance from. A flawed group of people that are usually trying their best to Glorify God, I’m not saying that NCMI is infallible nor am I defending any illegal acts or real abuses that have happened at the hands of an NCMI member or leader…but just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean the couple million other members are too….
I feel bad for many of you and especially for anyone who has suffered any illegal abuse but many of you are quite frankly people that are looking for acceptance through the Church instead of Jesus and you will always be let down until you change your mindset.
I’m not claiming that I’m perfect at it but I value myself and my wife enough to not allow myself or her be used and/or abused or “guilted” into doing something that does not bring glory to Christ. Wake up people and use the God given discernment that the Holy Spirit has sent to us all.
On a side note, so what if Tyrone Daniels is rich? Has anyone dug into his background enough to see if he’s a successful business man or inherited money or married into it? Why do you assume and throw accusations that it MUST be from the church????
I don’t know where it comes from either but there seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping of an entire organization b/c of a few dozen complaints from around the world? Are you kidding me? How many millions of people are in NCMI related churches and you think that there isn’t going to be someone in leadership that makes a mistake from time to time. And give me a break if any of you on here wouldn’t be secritive if some guy was asking you a bunch of private questions so he could post them all over the Internet to make you look bad? A little bit holier-than-though, don’t you think?
My name is James Bettis and I attended Vineyard Christian Fellowship for 11 years in Baltimore and when I moved to Colorado I wanted to find a community of people that loved Jesus and wanted to see his Kingdom grow. I’m not afraid to post my name because there is nothing to fear? I’m not sure why any of you would have anything to fear by simply sharing your thoughts and opinions? I don’t think there is an NCMI Dept of Homeland Security coming to get you because you disagree with their practices or have grievances against some of their members and leaders… I welcome any responses that are sincere.
I am going to make it very clear right now that I do not believe every NCMI church is bad. I believe that most NCMI churches cover for each other. I believe that the system protects churches that are hurting people. From my experience, and from testimonies I have heard from many others – If the church was not supporting the community, and you went “solo” you were in for a world of hurt, condemnations and battles with people who called themselves followers of Christ.
I understand that you think you are not being hurtful, but I have to say that a statement like that “STINKS”. People in abusive churches, where they are forced to comply with a specific set of beliefs that are inverted to the bible, will suffer some form of retribution from people who prey on the people who feel the confidence to stand with Christ alone. Like me, I believe that the only priest I need is Christ, my High-priest and me, in a Royal Priesthood, through Christ’s blood. This type of attitude is a church that promoted a Apostolic hierarchy was not applauded but shunned. Individualism is not something that can stand in a church that requires Hive-like thinking! Yes, there are the week that will be used and used until they crack. They are equally a target for people who see them as easy workers etc. For you to make a statement that it is somehow the fault of the person who was abused seems ludicrous and I believe as has been proven on this blog before, very much in line of the NCMI attitude. I think you should look at the example of Christs ministry and tell me how Christ would have treated the weak? Tell me how he treated the vulnerable?
I actually tried to phone the church and speak to Tyrone about this. As a Non-Profit, the pastor should have been able to explain this without problems. Instead I received an attack on my person from Rory. To this day NO letter detailing questions I have for Tyrone has been answered. No open letter detailing elders lies and doctrinal errors has been answered. This weblog is the online opposition to NCMI and it gets a lot of visitors. I have said before, and the offer still stands. Tyrone is welcome to speak to me personally and I will be happy to listen to his side of the story – I would also hope that he would be happy to listen to mine. I do not wish for NCMI to be destroyed or dismantled. I do however want them to see that they are doing some things, and creating certain systems that are hurting the flock. Until this day, not one elder, or leader in NCMI has really shown interest in listening to the problems and making a change.