Why this Blog?

Some people might wonder why there is even a need for a blog like this. Some may say that a blog like this causes division in the church.

I have not created this blog to cause division, but rather to show Christians out there that are attanding NCMI relating churches that there are options.

There is a large community out there that are commited to showing the errors in the Pentecostal and Charistmatic movement, but unfortunitly NCMI has missed the critisms that have been placed forward.

There is however a need for balance, and I don’t believe that a church group like NCMI, having the track record that they have should be spared being held accountable to the Universal Church.

Take a look at these comments that appeared on one page a a Charistmatic blog called Spirit of God and you will see people hurt, and broken by NCMI

Anonymous said…

NCMI is a controlling, fringe pentecostal cult. Run for your life!

Sangiro said…

NCMI leadership and members and those who think to join them:I joined the NCMI New Generation Church in Somerset West round about 2001. I was returning to a walk with God. I initially found a “fun” community with people full of character and a heart to follow and worship God. I still had some sinful issues and confided psychologist who was also an elder in the church. He went to the pastor Tapping to tell him about my sinful ways. After the service I was called by pastor Tapping to be told that I must change my sinful ways or leave the church as he, pastor Tapping will not allow, a spirit of lust to take hold of his church. So if you a sinner or are a Christian struggling with sin do you will not find a church that will walk with you till you find victory. Move on and find Christians who will with encouragement and prayer walk with you till you are victorious. NCMI is full of deceitful and people that show a character of unethical behavior and all in the name of God.

Logos said…

NCMI is nothing less than control, manipulation and “authority” to the apostles and prophets (they received the “annointing”).

Speaking in (so-called) tongues…healing (sometimes you don’t get healed, but hey what’s the problem…).

Do not get involved with these apostle- and prophet-guys. Once they’ve got influence….first they get involved with the leaders of the church….you can say goodbye to your brothers and sisters. At least…if you have other theological thoughts about their Ephesians 4-doctrine.

Anonymous said…

I agree with the previous comments. My experience with NCMI was horrible, even to the extent of causing long lasting emotional trauma.

I attended NCF church in Pietermaritzburg, SA, and witnessed emotional and sexual abuse. There was also a high level of financial abuse. The elders where un-educated, not having the slightest clue about theology.

I am glad I left, and was still able to heal my relationship with God, outside of a Charismatic environment.

I think it is clear. NCMI is causing proplems and like any other church, needs to be examined.

138 Responses

  1. Although I don’t blame NCMI as a whole and still believe there is a lot of merit in the structure, I have a problem with the fact that people abuse their authority as leaders in the church. We have seen how Law and Grace oppose each other in the church and when the church is bound by a leader who enforces law…there is no hope. We left our church due to the lack of grace exercised by our leaders. Read about our experiences here : http://randomconjectures.wordpress.com

    • There is a reason for these abuses that go on in NCMI. I’m from Adelaide and attended Coastlands church for around two years. I saw all kinds of abuse; financial, doctrinal, spiritual, emotional.

      Yes I agree with their lack of biblical knowledge -It’s disturbing. Recently the pastor of this congregation ran off with another women. Ok his father was a king pin in this organisation. Here is the crutch NCMI preaches and is set up on the Jethro Principle (like about 95 percent of western churches).


      Read Exodus, it does not work because it’s not Gods principle. Alcida is more Godly in principles than any Hillsong, Edge, Seaton Family Centre, Paradise or any of the NCMI’s going around yes they worship the wrong God alcida that is and Yes its Islam or Satan, if it ain’t going to Jesus its going to satan.Well,in exodus after Moses uses the jethro principle he tells god to kill him.GOD says put the 70 elders in charge,there is a whole lot in that start your study check scriptue.Ill say as a fact any institutional church is un godly.JESUS tore down the vail so we all get god directly.jesus said dont lord over one another like the heathens.jethro pirimid scheme allows abuses because of its hierarkeal system know one in the top part of the pyrimid scheme is accountable in this life.And abuses like above happen,but i think the worst in the ncmi is financial abuse.The tythe is old testiment and was for the people to renue there covernment with god.The first church gave everything.thats enough for now take it easy check scripture.

      • Thank you for your testimony!

      • Hey Rowy, r u talking about Jon Daniels, holy smoke did he really run off with another women? his wife was a stunner. I haven’t been going to church much and was thinking of returning (coastlands, Adelaide ) I guess we r all just human. I really don’t know what to think, shattered!

  2. Blog offline.

    • WOW has Jon Daniels scored a pastor job at Living hope church in vancouver washington? We have been told he already has a $250,000 house for him and his new bride.
      is this where mr daniels will be lifted from the ashes? I wonder how long it will be untill pastor bishop and JD hit the road for the restore JD show?
      keep drinking the koolaid boys and girls its all about money and conections.

      • This is plain gossip even if it’s true and I don’t know if it is or isn’t. Does this comment build up the body of Christ – I think not. I don’t want anything to be swept under the carpet and hidden however if there are problems none of us can sort them out, hand them over to the Lord as I believe that He is better qualified to deal with these things.

      • Hey Gordon, I don’t think you are qualified to judge bill b’s post. You should leave it to God as he alone is qualified to reply.
        You should probably go work on your own walk with the Lord and tell someone about Jesus.

      • Well said JD is not a man of god. He is a liar a cheat and a thief. A manipulative narcissitic cheat what an absolute joke. He sold the house or from under his wife and kids. ..got her to get citizenship while getting intimate with his newly married besties wife. No way this makes me sick. Coast lands has no building to call home now forced to rent. He should hang his head in shame.. dumped a beautiful wife and three gorgeous kids for what someone he’ll get on famously with
        .for a while a fellow cheat ..kathy muldoon

      • Gordon, You are part of the same manipulative system that creates problems like this. Yes, it is true as confirmed by his new employer, and yes, it should be exposed, When people say something like: “Hand it over to the Lord” they are really saying that: “Please, don’t let this come out and destroy our kingdom”. What should be said is that all issues in life should be handed over to the Lord. At the same time, if a child is taking drugs, we should hand it to the Lord, then deal with our child.

        The bible is clear that there is a earthly and a heavenly way of dealing with things and that BOTH are needed. You can take 1 verse by itself and it will back what you say up.

        Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

        As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. ~ 1 Timothy 5:20

      • Good day peterwriteslittle

        The first paragraph forms part of an email that I sent to John Bishop

        “I believe that if JD has come before the Lord and honestly repented of anything (everything) that he did then that is between him and God, if he is lying and only says that he has (and I have no reason to believe that he is lying) that too is between him and God and will be held accountable one day. If you as the Senior Pastor see something then I believe that you need to raise the issue and address it before your “congregation” is hurt but it has got nothing to do with “The Blog”.

        I believe that repentance and restitution/ restoration go hand in hand and no matter who the person is. I would be scared spitless to do anything at all in some of the churches “represented “ by some of the people on this blog because I have the potential to mess up from time to time and I can already see people lining up with stones in their hands and taking aim.

        I also believe in the Lord’s Prayer whereby our trespasses are forgiven us as we forgive others theirs, so I hope that some of these guys are living perfect lives otherwise they might not find the forgiveness that they expect.

        Would JD have experienced some forgiveness had he come out of any other stable other than NCMI? This Blog isn’t about JD and I am not saying that what he did was correct but it has got nothing to do with us.

        Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. – Ephesians 5:11 is quoted and yet maybe this whole Anti NCMI Blog that I am also participating in falls into the unfruitful works of darkness category and is presently being exposed. So, I agree that you can take one verse by itself and it will back what you want it to say.
        Ephesians 4:11 “And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some,
        pastors and teachers;” and others to be part the Anti NCMI Blog (I think not)

        What I am saying is find your calling and operate in that; we are wasting too much time on the likes of this blog. I have been accused of being part of the same manipulative system that creates problems and if that is the case then I apologise for that because the Bible likens manipulation to witchcraft and I wouldn’t want to be part of that. This blog is Anti NCMI and I have been with an NCMI church in Port Elizabeth South Africa (The Storehouse) for about 26 years and I haven’t experienced what has been “blogged” and we are being thrown in with the few individual churches that have apparently caused the problems. If you think that I have agreed with everything that has happened within NCMI in 26 years then you are mistaken because man will make mistakes but let’s put it behind us and get on with what we are called to do. When I say hand it over to the Lord I genuinely mean “Lord if NCMI is the problem then please either make them line up with the Word or if they won’t listen then shut it down completely”. NCMI is not the alpha and the omega but then there aren’t any other church groupings that are either.
        I realise that people have been hurt and offended but they are the ones walking around carrying that hurt and they need to let it go for their own sakes, at the end of the day we end up becoming stagnant instead of growing in the Lord when we are carrying bitterness.

        Guy’s there is so much more out there than being Anti NCMI.

        Miss Anon, you feel that I am not qualified to “judge” bill b’s post and you are correct however you feel that you are qualified to judge my walk with the Lord. Yes I will tell someone about Jesus as that is what we are supposed to do aren’t we ?.

        I know that some are going to shoot me down for this but understand I am not against any of you.

        Gordon Cowie

      • As you read please remember that very few pastors use the techniques you are about to discover. The great majority of Christian pastors do not earn much money even though they work hard at their jobs. Most Christian pastors would find these techniques repugnant. Please do not make the mistake of tarring the many good pastors with the brush reserved for the spiritually corrupt few.

        Table of Contents

        The Multilevel Marketing Pattern
        Hyped Conferences
        The Christian Speaking Circuit
        Pastor Owned Businesses that Feed Off the Flock
        The Honor the Pastor Scam
        High Pressure Offerings
        Siphoning Cash into Property
        Excessive Wages
        Their Fabricated Tithing Doctrine
        The Carrot and the Stick

      • So is Jon Daniel’s Living hopes version of James ‘Chunks’ Corbett, Elevation’s churches executive pastor? Think he fits that role great.

      • 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.

        ”Hmmmm this sounds very familiar

      • All these men of God like Furtick, Young, Daniels and Bishop all have drawn comparisons to godfather of televangelism Jim Bakker. Big Money ,Big homes, Sad story’s I, I, my, me, me .Bishop and his lieutenants refuse to tell the people who pay his salary, the congregation at Living Hope Church, just how much he makes.If asked you will get the same old line. You must not trust God, stop the gossip Stop the talk and just pray these type of comments are thoughtless, and a brainless things to say. It’s a way of avoiding telling the truth and doing what is right.
        Shine the light and the rats will run

    • A good source from Portland has told us that JD starts work at Living hope church in Vancouver, WA 3/17/2014. Did title search and Yes daddy bought him another house .
      The pastor of this church is all about personal gain, $300,000 per year,a large home in Vancouver and a vacation home in mexico He and JD have so much in common only difference is his Mistress did not become pregnant.Most of us that went to Living hope now go to Crossroads Church. The pastor there is about Jesus and not himself.
      You can not even approach Bishop will all the security around him. People stop drinking to koolaid These men are about MONEY MONEY MONEY.

      • HostageHow many of today’s pastors would continue to preach if no money was involved in ministry? Very likely not more than a handful of them would preach if they did not get paychecks. Pastors all want you to volunteer your time and especially your money, but how many pastors volunteer to preach the Gospel for free? Did Jesus Christ ever intend that preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God should become a multi-billion dollar business enterprise, such as we see in the world of churches today? The message that Jesus Christ very clearly gave to His hand-picked disciples was “freely you have received, freely give” (Matthew 10:8), and yet almost all preachers today think “freely give” means for church goers to “freely give” to the preachers, when Jesus taught His “preachers” to be the ones to give freely, and not to merchandise the Gospel. Elsewhere Jesus taught that “by their fruit you will know them”, and it seems the fruit of almost all pastors today is to take your money, and not to give freely.

        The reason that the disciples of Jesus Christ were warned NOT TO PREACH IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST (Acts 5:29 and Acts 5:40), is because the teachings of Jesus Christ stripped the religious leaders (elders, priests, chief priests, scribes and lawyers) of:

        False religious power.
        Money robbery.
        Man-made customs and traditions, in the name of God.
        Self-importance and self exaltation.
        Deceiving people with heavy burdens, not from God.
        Works done to be seen of men.
        Wearing religious garb to impress others with their false “Holy” status.
        Vain titles such as being called “master” or “pastor”, when Jesus Christ is the only Master and real Shepherd.
        Being lords over God’s heritage.
        Focusing on money, instead of love, mercy, compassion and faith.
        Straining at gnats and swallowing camels (majoring on minors, while minoring on majors).
        Appearing as “angels of light”, when inwardly they were wolves in sheep’s clothing.
        Appearing outwardly beautiful, while inwardly being full of dead men’s bones.
        Appearing outwardly righteous, while actually being hypocrites.
        The church world is hostage to pastors in our day and age, much as the common person was to the religious leaders of the time of Christ. Even Paul of the New Testament era worked with his own hands, earned his own private income, paid his own expenses, and never coveted the gold or silver (money) of anyone by his own admission (Acts 20: 29-34). Paul, unlike almost all preachers today, followed the admonition of Christ to “freely give”, and even though Paul earned his own income through tent making he still found time to preach Christ crucified (1 Corinthians 1).

        Millions of church goers are hostage to pastors, not only for money sake, but also by the many false teachings circulating in the world of churchianity. False teachings have to do with such issues as:
        End times false prophecies.
        Placing hope and faith in “the rapture.” (A false escapist doctrine, not founded on Biblical truth).
        Saturday “Sabbath” observance. (Jesus Christ is the real Rest, and not any day of the week). Matthew 11:28 “Come unto ME, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST.” See also Hebrews 4:9-10, and Colossians 2:16-17.
        Sunday observance. (A man-made tradition never established by Jesus Christ).
        Man-made customs and traditions having to do with churchianity. For example:
        Church buildings.
        Church steeples.
        Stained glass windows.
        Pastor worship. (Hotly denied, but millions bow to professional clergy as if they are infallible).
        Many other endless customs of churches, and there are many.
        False tithing.
        The professional clergy (clergy/laity) system of churchianity.
        False emphasis upon “going to church”, rather than simply following Christ 24/7.
        Corporate churchianity.
        Business models of megachurches.
        “Senior Pastors”, when the real Master/Shepherd and Senior Pastor is Jesus Christ.
        Other endless man-made religious ideas, in the name of Jesus Christ (falsely so).
        In the time of Jesus Christ and the original disciples, the religious leaders commanded that there be NO PREACHING IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. Today, the religious church leaders tell you that you are in “rebellion” if you question their “authority”, especially if you tell them that Jesus Christ gave them NO AUTHORITY OVER ANYONE (except to cast out demons). Instead, they want to tell you “Paul said”, without ever digging deep to discover that some writings attributed to Paul are in contradiction to the teachings of Christ, and are either falsely interpreted, mistranslated, or even entirely spurious.

        As long as Christians allow preachers to do their thinking, they will be be HOSTAGE TO PASTORS, and pastors will gladly take your money for as long as you live, tell you what to think, and make you believe they are ordained by God to rule over your life. If Christians looked to Jesus Christ–the real Shepherd–with the same sheep-like belief they place in pastors, then all pastors would have to give up the “professional clergy” charades. Pastors are very jealous about their false power, control and authority over others, and most seem to never come to terms with the truth: that they do not displace Jesus Christ as Shepherd. If all the money were taken from all the pastors, then we would all be able to easily see the difference between those who are really preachers and those who preach because money is the real motive.

        Are you a HOSTAGE TO PASTORS? Or is Jesus Christ your REAL SHEPHERD? Jesus came to SET THE CAPTIVES FREE (Luke 4:18). Is what is termed “Christianity” really man-made “churchianity” (customs and traditions of men)?

    • The statement that “Cheating happens when the risk of getting caught cheating isn’t as scary as failing” is oxymoron when it comes to the pastorate, because cheating IS failing! It makes some sense with a history exam, because there is a chance (or the idea of a chance)of success, but when it comes to an affair, what success could be gained? No, I think pastors cheat for the same reason other men cheat… they are drawn away by their own lusts, and enticed! Lets not romanticize, or psychologize sin. It starts with a corrupt darkened heart that is the result of the sin nature, and leads to temptation, and failure.

    • 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.

      ”Hmmmm this sounds very familiar?

  3. I too attended NCMI in Johannesburg for 4 years. I will give them merit for helping me overcome a difficult stage in my life. However, I had some important and difficult decsions to make – whether to immigrate or if to buy a house. I found they tried to control and manipulate me into doing what they wanted under the guise of “God’s Will”. In addition, I fought with one of their deacons and elders and when I apologised, they refused to accept my apology. I do not doubt that many things are good at this church but some things I will agree to disagree. I found them very friendly at first but now believe that I have been ex – communicated.

  4. Hi Lara, I too have been ex communicated.. but I think it was for the best anyway.. I remember the pastor saying that if you leave the country you could die… people who have ‘moved out of God’s will’ would die in some kind of tragedy’ for eg. if we moved to australia, we could die in a freak accidental mud slide..

  5. We’ve left an NCMI-relating church. First off, the NCMI churches where we live are spread very thinly as is the apostolic team. Unlike the Apostle Paul and his companions, who lived among the people they shepherded for stretches of time, the Team people here jet in for a weekend then jet back home. This doesn’t allow for the Team people to really see what’s going on and make real corrections. The church we were in would put its best foot forward, and the apostolic guys would always spend the weekend telling us how great we were. But they didn’t stay long enough to really sniff out all the control and manipulation coming from the top down.

    Yes, control. It was just shy of a cult. Imagine a small church where anyone with any kind of gifting is pressed into service and worked *very* hard to meet the agenda of “building.” You’re told that you don’t ever miss a meeting unless you’re in bed sick (as that is the Dudley way). You’re told that “Kingdom” means giving up family events, missing your kids’ birthdays and spending hours upon hours on weekends in “leadership” meetings.

    I have a feeling that if Dudley himself knew what was going on in his name, he would be very angry.

    And what’s the fruit? A church of burned out people who are so in-bred and in-grown that they have very little life outside of meetings, meetings, meetings. And yet, people are afraid to speak up and say something because they know they will be viewed negatively.

    • I am greatly saddened to hear these things as I have met Dudley and heard him. He would be very concerned.
      Those people do not understand.

    • I am not sure where you live but it is interesting that when I read your post to my wife she thought I had written it. I have seen the same story over and over as I research.

      If the fruit seems to be the same around the world then we have to say there must be something wrong with the model. I understand that for the most part the leaders are sincere, sacrificial and trying to live out the doctrine they have adopted. I appreciate the desire for fruitful churches and strong believers but you can not put fruit on a tree because it will always rot. It has to grow by being connected to the vine. In my view everything seems backwards.

      Leaders are not supposed to whip people into shape they are supposed to protect people from religious bullies and phonies and declare their freedom. Jesus is the one building -HIS- Church. It is reassuring to know that it was Jesus who gave “the five fold” and it’s not the job of his church to manufacture it.

  6. Outsider, we were looked down upon if we stayed home due to being sick, it was seen as having a lack of faith… I also made a point of not coming to the meetings on special days… I was not ‘devoted’ enough.. FAther’s day, mother’s day, birthdays were special days for me and I would not give in.. I made a point of staying home for my son’s birthday and everyone sms’d me,”is everything okay.” I wanted to scream coz even their ‘concern’ was manipulation.

  7. Hi guys, i think it’s so tradgic that you have had such bad experiences with the ‘ncmi” relating churches.

    However you will find that no church is perfect and no stream, denomination are perfect. But the values that the team guys have a very real and they believe in them, and i beleive in them.

    They however will not control churches that are relating to them, and unfortunatlety some elders have gone wrong,but i don’t beleive that should be at the blame of the ncmi team.
    I too strong convictions of God’s beautiful grace and are greatly saddend when i see people weighed down under the laws of man and what they think is proper. Whether they’re ncmi relating or not.

    And i also know that ncmi aren’t the “be all and end all” of all christian streams and they will tell you that too, as they rub shoulders with other steams, and believe we are all one church not seperated by denominations, that’s exactly why they refuse to ba labelled as a denomination.

    So instead of judging NCMI, stick to the real reason you had problems, and that probnlem was betwen you and the particular church you were in. NCMI are accountable to each other and to other teams in other “denominations/stream”

    I guess all we can do is check the fruit, no fruit then it’s probably not a God thing. However with whatever short comings “ncmi” may have the fruit is in the growth, and it’s definately there, for every one person witha bad expereince theres probably a 100, with a great experience. Let’s not ride them off. as we wouldn’t ride off every other stream.

    You’ll find people leading both wrongly and rightly in any denomination or stream, the point is to go where God sends you and don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
    If you have a grievance with an Elder, you can go to another team guy, and tell them about it.

    Other than that all you can do is forgive and pray for them. Don’t pull down people with your words. If you’re hurting there’s healing.

    It’s possible for any church leader to mistreat, abuse and put people under law. Let’s not blame ncmi for thier short comings. They can get it wrong and then also make it right, as God is fukll of grace for us, let’s give the same grace to others.

    Remember we all be together in heaven so we may as well forgive now.

    • Hi anon (and outsider),

      I was involved in one of the pre-emminent ‘base churches’ in Australia for nearly 15 years. This church was lead by the former leader of the apostolic team for a time and by the current leader.

      You seem to be suggesting that the abuses of NCMI are aberrations in particular churches and not connected to the teachings of NCMI and its leaders.

      I disagree completely. The abusive system has grown directly from the seedbed of the teachings and beliefs of the NCMI leaders. These teachings, clearly laid out in manuals and the like, produce the culture of NCMI which, in turn, becomes the culture of the churches under its oversight.

      It is a confused theology (if you could call it that) that teaches a mixture of grace and law. I think if you tried to follow the teaching consistently you would go schizophrenic!

      I could write a book about the effects on the psyche of this exhausting, all consuming system. I am absolutely thrilled to be out of it and I would encourage others to leave also. I am finally living my life in freedom. I am free forever because of God’s Grace. All He requires of me is Faith. I am justified by Faith; not by being an NCMI superhero, attending many meetings, going overseas for more meetings, giving them all my money (where’s the building fund now guys?) or having a steely gaze, a trendy haircut and a South African accent. Ach shame.

      Look, its not all bad, however. There are good, well meaning people and also some good beliefs and their general theology is quite orthodox. This is mixed with cult-like tendencies, though, so its quite a minefield, and simply too much for one short post.

    • We were in an NCMI church for fifteen years and we found that the team guys did control the elders in the local churches, that there was severe mishandling of finances, that the team-local church model is failing, that many team guys do not know the Word of God, that the team is not really an Eph 4 team as most team guys are pastors/teachers, that some team guys are not even leaders, let alone Eph 4 ministers, that the interaction of the NCMI people is still South African, that women are just tolerated as leaders…..we finally left after a long season of trying to become a part of NCMI. We are so happy since we left the cult.

  8. Dear Anon, thank you for sharing this comment. I see what you are saying and trust me, I have forgiven my x church… but I have to warn because ncmi have some strange doctrine. While i agree that not all churches are perfect, there should be no room for error within the church in terms of doctrine. I cannot ever trust a pastor, I trust Jesus now and let Him show me the way because many churches don’t actually know the way. other issues never bothered me, but doctrine does. There should be no room for a mixed up doctrine and misinterpretation of the bible. I have grace, I want to see them delve into truth. It is love that tells the truth.

  9. So basically what you are saying is this:
    NCMI is orthodox; they have churches that relate to them that do not have to adhere to what NCMI believes. NCMI chooses to give these aberrant churches their coverings, but whenever there are reports of abuse within the church NCMI distances itself by saying that they do not control these churches. I hope what I am saying here is clear, and that I am interpreting you post correctly.
    Is this in fact what you are saying? What did the Apostle Paul do when a church had fallen into problems? Simple, he did something about it but either writing letters or going to the churches himself. If there are in fact Apostles today is this not what the apostolic team from NCMI should also be doing?
    I know that we are under grace, but the bible also instructs us to reject false teachers. Grace is between man and God and also should not be used as an excuse or a shield. That is one of the reasons I have a problem with Rob Rufus.

  10. Hi, Concerned, no I’m sorry you are confused about what i have written, yes it’s correct that ncmi doesn’t control these churches they are invited into them. If the relationship is what it ought to be between the church and ncmi, then ncmi would know about any grievances, if the church was transparent with thier problems.

    And yeah i have no doubt that they would correct them with the authority that an apostle would have. And i know that if theses elders were in sin and disrepute, without any intention of correction the ncmi team would have to break the relationship with them, that’s only fair.

    If a church chooses to relate to ncmi, you would think it was because they believe in what ncmi also stands for, thus accepting upon themselves, by choice and in respect, to all the vision and values upheld by tyhe ncmi team. yes?
    And yeah i agree that correction ought to come from ncmi in regards to matters of the churches, as Paul the apostle did, also, bringing correction and disciplne to the elders who choose to relate with them.

    If “abuse” occurs, as however kind of abuse is defined here, I’m not sure, I assume some kind of controlling and domineering abuse, where the sheep are under a control mentality? Then it’s people like Rob Rufus who are gifted with bringing grace to a church under law, and teaching the eldership of these churches the same? Not to abuse the flock.

    We have to trust that God brings to light such matters that are done in the dark and are unknown to the team, and God is full of justice, and will bring down false teachers, abusive pastors etc….

    No, grace is no excuse or reason for sinning deliberately and continually without remorse or regard for others, but it’s there when we do fall, Rob preaches this.

    And it’s true! If we never read our bibles or witnessed ever again, God still loves us and we’re still saved by His amazing grace, and because of this we are spurred on further to do more for our Wonderful King, because we love Him sooo much because he first loved us, even before we accepted the grace in Jesus.

    That’s the true beauty of God. He can stretch out his patient loving hand to those of us who can’t just perform and act like we’re great people who never sin. He can forgive, renew and transform us, in a way that no human in all thier widom and rules can.

    It’s for this reason I can see why religious people hate the grace teaching, cos it means that all thier work means nothing and anyone, can be saved, loved and looked upon as beautiful to god, not cos of thier performance and works but because he see’s christ in them, and i know i wouldn;’t trade that revelation, for all the riches of this world.

    Sorry but grace is my shield, i admit my wrongs and my accidental sins, cos that’s what they are accidental, i don’t go out of my way to sin, for the sake of it or because i know God’s grace is there. Instead anyone with a treu revelation of Grace doesn’t sin on purpose to annoy people, God know’s what they’re doing and thier motives.

    So yeah i guess Grace is between God and his people, cos it’s no one else’s business, unless someone else’s sin is corrupting the sheep around them, then yes we deal with them,as in the bible, cast them out of your midst.
    Rob is no false teacher.

    I’m sorry you must have had an extraordinary experience with your particular church and had no kind of closure, with whatever happened to you.
    As with some of the others who’ve written here. Its unfortaunate and i feel for you who have expeirinced any kind of control and law oppression. But i can tell you that that’s not what the team stand for.

    If it were then my experience of them and thousands of other churches would be similar, but all have after 8 years, is grace. No sense of pressure or control, no one tells me off if i can’t make it to church one sunday cos of family doo, or other reason, No one makes me pay tithes, or makes me serve, or makes me read my bible and turn up to every meeting. I have my share of church splits and disagreements between elders, and i’ve even seen after a couple of years and a break, them reconciled, because everyone who loves God makes the effort to resolve issues among themselves, even if it doesn’t work out.

    The closer you know some of the guys who are on the team, the more you know thier heart, the more you know thier heart and see the fruit around them, good fruit that is all the fruit of the Spirit which is peace, joy, love, faithfulness, kindness and goodness, then the more know it’s God among it.
    If these fruits are of no existence or evedient among your own church, then yeah, get out!! Bit i see all these fruits whne i speak and relate with people from around Australia, in them and around them.
    Thoughb this may not be the case everywhere, this has to our prayer. That this will be the fruit in every church, not just ncmi related one’s, as i embrace all. But know NCMI is for me at this time in my life till God tells me otherwise and i move on.

  11. Anon, I would love to see your view on how a church should behaive? Quite frankly what bothers me is doctrine! There is not such thing as a perfect church as we are all different people and we all have different opinions but doctrine should be perfect, there is no room for error. Many who prophecy within the ncmi, prophecy incorrectly and the bible says that there is no mixture or room for error. God cannot take mixture.. mixed doctrine is a failed doctrine.

    I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
    2 Cor. 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted– you may well put up with it. (you will have to endure it, or you wear it beautifully, and some do).”

    Gal 1:6-9: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

  12. Stumbled upon this site and for heaven’s sake, most of you need to get a life. How’s this for a word from an NCMI “member”? – if you don’t lighten up the stench of death over you will drive non-believers from you. And what’s with all the non-de-plumes – everybody so scared of big, bad NCMI that you cant sign your moans with your real name?

    • My goodness Brendan Magill – and they accuse NCMI people of being arrogant, agressive and bible-bashing! I have also heard they are sarcastic…but I don’t believe it.

  13. What stench of death? Wow, that is a real statement.
    By the way, my name is [Removed due to threats] of Pietermaritzburg, South Africa. I used to attend NCF church. I was scared of mentioning my name when I started my blog, but now I don’t think I am anymore.
    I have explained the reasons for this blog and will not again. Thanks for you comment.

    • I think we need to have the freedom to be able to express concern,otherwise how can we support one another, and pray for one another.

  14. Dear concerned-

    If you’re all so frightened about stumbling into a church that may have a doctrine issue, perhaps ya’ll should just live in a box somewhere!

    If you never trust again, well, that’s a sad waste of what could have been a very usefull and productive christian walk.
    Much better to step out of the boat and get wet than never step out at all!

    What are you afraid of?? That you may actually find somewhere an actually enjoy a grace filled life??…get over it! Move on with your life and quit ragging on our fellow christians… i tend to agree with Brendan Magill!

    It was stupid of me to think that i could make a difference on this blog when clearly you have forgiveness issues…because if you’d truly forgiven you’d rip down this ridiculous blog and get a life….people like you only know how to criticise and pull down!

    You think you’re helping people when really all you’re doing is giving unbelievers a reason not to go anywhere near christanity- Heck! if we cant rise above these issues, why would we expect non beleivers to find any of this attractive.

    This my friend this will get you absolutely no where!
    My prayer is that you find it in your heart to let go, find a church that your happy in and grow up in maturity.

    NCMI is fantastic!!! Your experience, if even true, is a minority! So be a critic and be miserable in the process! You dont want to cause division??? ppffff whatever, the proof is in this blog that you are, don’t think that just cos you say “this is not to cause division” that it doesn’t, the shear act of this blog itself DOES!

    You are trying to avert others form NCMI! Shame on you! To all the people out there who look into NCMI…I suggest you try it for yourself and judge for yourself what is GOOD!

    Job 34:3-5 (New International Version)

    3 For the ear tests words
    as the tongue tastes food.

    4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;
    let us learn together what is good.

    Dear Getting there:
    That galations scripture is Paul talking about the gospel of grace-Jesus- and saying let them be accursed if they recieve any other doctrine thats not the gospel of grace AND of Jesus finished work…

    Why the heck would you even post that as an attack?!

    Boo hoo someone may have even prophesied wrongly…that’s what you have a brain for! and the bible so you can line things up with the word for yourself!!

    Boo hoo “doctrine should be perfect” Well dah.. the doctrine is but not all preachers are! Gee what happened to simply going to your elder and ASKING him what he meant??? Do we just go around like this, and blog it everywhere??

    Stop criticising every person who ever steps out and makes a mistake!! At least they did and who are you to judge thier heart behind it?!! Get over it!

    Are those scriptures supposed to correct me??? I love the word, i live in grace, and my love for JC! Those scriptures don’t make me feel bad!! I agree with them.

    Don’t think for a second that feel i’m lost or gone off with a “wierd myth like” teaching.

    The gospel is simple friend- Jesus = forgivness = grace= forever! No matter what we do or who we are! I am no perveter of the gospel of Jesus! and the ncmi team aren’t either!! Do you even know any of them?? Or do you just listen to rumour, or take one line of thier preaching and skew it to your perverted liking!?

    It’s critical people like you guys who seem to think they have some liscence to just be nit picky at everything!! You’re the kind of people who are always suspicious and waiting for someone to even slip a little then you say “ha!! see these people are wrong!” and feel so darn fantatsic in the process, Who are you!!!! HAVE YOU EVER MADE A MISTAKE!!

    Can you even visit a church without finding error? Good luck friend, it will never happen, (cos you are always looking for it), till we’re in heaven where things are perfect!!
    I’ll be seeing you there. xoxoxo Lucky for us Grace is perfect and can even cover this nonsense, that’s also the beauty of it.

    PS as for “getting there’s” question on how i think a church should behave???
    Well not like back stabbing wolves!!! BUT rather
    As it says- people will know them by thier love for eachother.

    John 13:34-36 (New International Version)

    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    Too bad there’s no love produced here :(

    I apologise to anyone who reads this blog while finding thier way in christianity or looking into christianity– this is not the ideal, but it happens, unfortunatley even among the people who should be representing grace, forgivness and love.

    Don’t let this mish mash of crap, (including mine) deture you from God, he is love, and he want’s to extend a grace to you…that is rich and wonderfully blessed with every good thing..seek Him and you will find the truth!

    This is an example of unproductiveness- and i’ll TRY NOT be on it anymore. Even as much as it is tempting to defend NCMI because i love them as people.

    By the way “concerned” if you like to criticise Rob Rufus’s teaching, perhaps pick up a copy of Joseph Prince’s “Destined to Reign” you’ll love picking that apart BECAUSE IT’S JUST AS AWESOME AS ROB’S GRACE TEACHING!

    Even with all the rubbish…lot’s of love Anonymous xoxoxox

  15. You say that if I am frightened about stumbling into a church that has doctrine issues then I should go live in the box. But we a commanded by God through scripture to test all things!

    1 Thessalonians 5:21
    But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good

    1 John 4
    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    I don’t have to attend a church that teaches error as I believe NCMI does.
    You also say that if I never trust again it would be sad, but I do trust!!!! I trust the Lord my God with all my heart. I have also formed relationships with Christians where I live and here on the net. People who hold to the truth and the truth is preserved in them through the Spirit. Many are ministers and pastors. Some persecuted within their churches by the insurgence of the Charismatic theological thought. Many dealing with churches loosing funding and closing down or splitting because they where not willing to compromise the truth
    You say that it was stupid of you to think that you could make a difference on this blog. Did you expect me to recant and close the blog? Do you think that I created this blog out of some desperate need of attention and that it was just a passing phase in my life? You point out that I have forgiveness issues, well that is just not true. I have forgiven the people that I have issues with and even share a property with one of them. I am under no obligation not to point out to others the very reasons why I had to forgive them in the first place.
    You also point out that this blog will chase unbelievers from Christianity, but again that is not true. This is a Christian blog, NCMI is not the only way and people can come to the Father there is another thing, say JESUS!!!!!!! For you to think that criticism of a specific aberrant group is going to chase un-believers away from Christianity is arrogant. Should we, like the Catholic missionaries in Africa, mix truth with un-truth all in the sake of winning converts? What is chasing people away from God is the hurtful practices of churches like NCMI that go un-abated all under the guise of Grace and Autonomous Relationships.
    You point out that my experience, if even true is the minority. No, your experience (NCMI being fantastic) is the minority, there are just too many in these churches whose world views are blinded by legalism and fanaticism to see what is really going on. I also don’t cause division. It is biblical to divide the bad from the good, the lies from the truth, the un-Godly from the Godly.
    Matthew 13:49
    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

    2 Corinthians 6:14-17
    Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
    Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
    Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
    Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord
    And I will welcome you.

    “””Shame on me for trying to avert others from NCMI!”””” I feel no shame, and yes I am trying to avert people from NCMI, to other God-fearing, bible believing churches that will show them the fullness of the Grace we have from our Lord Jesus Christ. Not the grace given among men and the lenience given to Heretics like Todd Bentley.
    I agree with Job 34:3-5. Discernment is not a sin and this is what this site is here to do. It is a resource that has been added to offer an apposing view to what NCMI presents to the world un-abated. It is simply a resource.
    I will let Getting there respond to her part.
    God bless you and know that I have no hate or bitterness in my heart for you, but I try my hardest, fighting the flesh, to Love what is good and hate what is evil. I cannot love what the NCMI model is doing to the church.

  16. it really doesn’t matter what anon thinks. I am not here to impress you anon.. ncmi messed me up big time and that’s the thing.. but Jesus is king and I trust Jesus. I am not perfect nor do i have all the answers but one thing I do know is Truth is truth a as Concerned has clearly stated our stance on things. Use discernment and pray for God to guide you. it is not just one church that has disrupted and put a stumbling block in the lives of those who want truth.. it’s many and that is what concerns me most.. if it was just one church, then I would probably let it go, but this is not the case. It’s many churches teaching heresy and hurting sincere believers.

  17. As you quoted concerned——” Matthew 13:49
    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    2 Corinthians 6:14-17
    Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership has righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
    Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
    Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
    Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord
    And I will welcome you.”

    Don’t you know that this is referring to unbelievers and believers…not to separate from those in Christ Jesus!! Do you know that even if – preachers teach wrong doctrine, that even if they still believe upon the name of Jesus for their salvation, they too will still meet us in heaven?

    Why then would you attempt to use these scriptures to try and twist and apply them to NCMI members?
    They are just as saved as you!! You’ll be seeing all of us and the team guys in heaven…do you know that GRACE is the reason so?

    I think you have a massive problem with the Grace message!
    You don’t know what you stand for!
    On one hand – you say that
    “they are legalistic and to stay away” –
    and then in the next breath you attack the Grace message which they preach (which apposes the legalistic law mentality) and still say
    “stay away from ncmi their doctrine is twisted!”
    What are you for friend- Grace or Law?

    You are very wishy washy….

    “Getting there” and “Concerned”, I’m sure, have a relationship with Christ, I don’t doubt that, but you are wrong in attacking people like Rob Rufus.

    Will you attack Joseph Prince too??

    I feel for you, I think you have major issues in understanding grace, if you really knew it, why would you be on here pulling down the very people who spread the Grace message, which is simply the gospel that Paul preached, the finished work of the cross, why?

    Concerned- Do you believe that no matter what you DO, you can not earn your way to heaven, do you trust in the finished work of the cross?

    Getting there said “Use discernment and pray for God to guide you. it is not just one church that has disrupted and put a stumbling block in the lives of those who want truth. ”

    Anon says to that –
    So you blame the actual NCMI Team for all the problems?
    That’s the same as blaming the whole Catholic Church for all the sexual Abuse!
    As many Catholics would be and are horrified at these crimes- and they try desperately to show that that’s not what the Catholic Church stands for!
    Do you not think that millions of NCMI peop’s that know truly what we stand for would not JUMP TO THE DEFENSE of their values and character?

    You are a Character assassinator! Rob Rufus has set people free by preaching the truth of the Grace message, and also people like Joseph Prince. I will never understand why you would attack such men.

    At the end of the day you can say what you like. It’s a free world, but you never stop the Grace message, that you seem to have such a big problem with!

    Grace is spreading like wildfire among the churches. And people are finally seeing how much their “ABBA father” loves them, and holds them no longer under law, but sees them as Holy, righteous and forgiven fully, because Jesus paid the price for us, forever NO MATTER WHAT!

    Getting there said “it really doesn’t matter what anon thinks. I am not here to impress you anon. ncmi messed me up big time and that’s the thing, but Jesus is king and I trust Jesus”

    Anon says-
    NCMI and it’s values, didn’t mess you up friend, may be that particular church did? Perhaps they hadn’t grasped the grace teaching, where as I can tell you the NCMI team has!

    So instead, like i said previously, stick to your grievances with the people that may have hurt you, and stop using your hurts as a reason to blame the whole NCMI as a team. Cos i can tell you there are churches relating with NCMI who are loving and wonderful…perhaps ya’ll should look around?

    Concerned said “You also point out that this blog will chase unbelievers from Christianity, but again that is not true. This is a Christian blog, NCMI is not the only way and people can come to the Father there is another thing, say JESUS!!!!!!!”

    Anon says-
    Well DAH! Don’t you know from my previous writings here that i know NCMI isn’t the BE ALL AND END ALL of Christianity! Perhaps you’re not paying much attention to what i write? A christian Blog, there’s nothing Christian about this!
    And of course anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved- whether they become a part of the Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Charismatic, Baptist churches…..whatever!

    It’s not your attack on NCMI that will put people off… It’s your attack on anyone in the faith in general! Do you think i wouldn’t find any attack, on any of God’s people, (especially coming from a Brother) to be a total turn off to unbeliever’s?
    I would feel just the same as if it were Catholics ragging on Anglicans!

    So yeah i still believe this Blog is a huge toxic TURN OFF!

    Getting there said “It’s many churches teaching heresy and hurting sincere believers”

    So many churches may have been heretic, but that’s not the NCMI Stance! They are not heretics, they may have had thoer mistakes, but they are not heretics!

    HERESY?! Is the message of grace heresy too you?
    All Grace ever does is glorify Jesus, and show how man is utterly helpless to please God except through the Gift of Jesus who cleanses us from ALL SIN!

    Heresy is when anything other than what the bible teaches is taught as truth!… that Jesus is not the way the truth and the life, that he is not our salvation, that he is not the Son of God, that he did not die for our sins and we’re still under the law!

    To say NCMI are heretics is a complete LIE! That Rob is a heretic, is LIE!

    “Concerned”- Again you have a problem with the Grace message- are you preaching that we have to earn our way to God, and that we are not simply forgiven and accepted to God through Christ? Do you not know we are new covenant people? We are not bound by the laws and rules of the old?

    If you are about to respond by answering “of course not anon, i believe in the finished work of the cross” then stop and think why am i criticising the men who preach it?

    I know you’re not here to impress me, I’m looking to be impressed.

    If it’s really true that your church at the time was legalistic about turning up at every meeting then, sure, you have a reason, to have a prob with that church, but no excuse for attacking, the men who preach Grace or the NCMI team!

    ‘Concerned”, I can imagine that you feel no sense of shame, for what this venomous blog is, perhaps you have no sense of right and wrong either?

    Before labelling NCMI as a cult perhaps you should look up the meaning in the dictionary first? And compare it to the values of NCMI….They are no cult.

    Concerned wrote “When I left I was angry at myself for being a follower. I wished that I could be a leader. It was only later that I realized that there is nothing wrong with being a follower, all though I believe that letting people make all the decisions in your life is wrong. Jumping up and down, spinning around, mass tongues, waving flags and even stage diving. These are things that anyone that has ever attended an NCMI relating church (or most NCMI relating churches) would have seen.
    I loved it and saw it as a church that had found freedom in religion. These people, I thought where so hyped for God and where doing Him some great service by performing these theatrics.
    Every service I would eagerly head to church excited to experience this freedom. I would hear people speak in tongues, I would hear prophecy, and I would hear what I thought to be God speaking into my own heart.
    It was only later on when I started having conflict with some of the elders that the scales fell off my eyes. I started to see how everything that was happening was nothing more than experience and had very little, if not nothing to do with the bible.”

    -Anon says-
    So now you have a problem with people being happy in Christ and worshipping Him fully, then I guess you would also be like King David’s wife who was angry with him for dancing practically naked to God, with such Joy! Read psalms, revelations anything! – Were people not leaping, shouting, and playing their instruments loudly and triumphantly- My friend it’s very sad that you’d pick on such an expression! – Nothing to do with the Bible!! Which bible are you reading?

    Luke 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets”

    1 Peter 1: 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    LEAP if God is for leaping, is that not the same as jumping for joy?
    Do have children “concerned?” If so does it not give you joy when they dance for fun?
    We’re filled with an inexpressible Joy! So we dance and leap and jump because our whole being is an expression of Joy!

    Well our dancing brings our father in Heaven joy also. Just as much as if you were dancing on the inside!
    God says Joy all the time! Is dancing not an expression of Joy- how sombre, how boring it must be to have your bleak view of God and worship! I bet when you picture God you see an old man with a stick ready to whack you, a God that has no fun!

    PPfff…God is the most fun anyone will ever have. And our joyful expressions are beautiful to Him.

    Concerned also wrote “I was also told that I believed in heretical doctrine because I was inclined to Calvinism”

    “Calvinism!” well yes friend no wonder there may have been conflict- Once saved always saved. What were doing? Earning your eternal salvation and telling others to also?

    - In practice, Calvinists teach sovereign grace primarily for the encouragement of the church because they believe the doctrine demonstrates the extent of God’s love in saving those who could not and would not follow him, as well as squelching pride and self-reliance and emphasizing the Christian’s total dependence on the grace of God.

    - In the same way, sanctification in the Calvinist view requires a continual reliance on God to purge the Christian’s depraved heart from the power of sin and to further the Christian’s joy.

    It’s the second paragraph is what I have a H U G E problem with ! So in this doctrine Calvinists nicely fluff you up with Grace and then in the next breath say, but you better be good to keep it!

    Sorry wrong! We do not have to continually purge and confess every day everything we do wrong! Christ was the full atonement! Tell me friend are you always worried about losing you salvation if you don’t “fly straight” 100% of the time?

    Every time you sin do you go through some ridiculous process of repentance and sorrowfulness before coming confidently before you Father through the grace of Jesus?

    Or do you simply acknowledge, that wasn’t right, “whoops”, and continue with your walk in the Lord, because you understand what Jesus has done for you? Well you can!

    Do you not understand that he loves you intimately even when you stuff up, and you can still walk with Him?

    Again do you know what you are attacking about these churches- is it the legalism bout going to meetings?
    Or the Grace that even if you don’t go to meetings, God still loves you and your salvation is secure?

    I’m confused what do you people actually stand for?

    Concerned said in a reply to Sam “I have in essence stopped being a buddy of the Lords and have become a slave to Him. This is my hope at least”

    Anon says-
    “A slave of God, and not a buddy…. and that’s your hope?” Is that all you can hope for in this life is to possibly be a slave to God? You sound like you don’t even know if you are good enough to even be God’s slave! Well because of Jesus YOU ARE MADE TO BE MORE THAN A SLAVE!

    Galatians 4:6
    because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
    Galatians 3:26
    you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus

    Friend we’re are sons and daughters, before we are servants, and we serve Him on the basis that we know we are His children first and foremost! – I pity you for believing you’re a slave to God- we are slaves to righteousness, not to God. We are automatically righteous; we can’t help it we are slaves to it and no longer slaves to Sin. Why? Because of Jesus!
    Romans 6:18
    You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness

    I only hope one day you’ll see how fun and free you can truly be in Jesus, and give up on picking on your dancing brothers and sisters! Do they pick on you for not dancing? Does God care if you dance or don’t dance?

    The whole argument reminds of 1 Cor 8, over food offered to idols, can you find the similarity? Food is trivial as is a person Dancing or not dancing at Church! God has made everything good!
    All music types and genre’s, all dancing, all singing, all instruments, are Holy when used to honour God!

    Be F R E E friend, that’s what Jesus hung on the cross for. He L O V E S you! So why be bound up with such rubbish!

    I summing up- NCMI churches aren’t all bad- We in Australia have it really good- let the team have time to sort out the kinks, the churches aren’t perfect- but there are heaps that are absolutely fantastic, with excellent loving leaders and happy people- not bound up under laws and regulations or scorned for not being at meetings.

    So quit with the NCMI Bashing!
    xoxoxox Anon in Australia

  18. I will rather befriend a prostitude, a stripper than be a friend with someone who preaches another Jesus! I will go to a strip club and make myself their friend than go to a church that preaches a false Jesus! there are warnings in the bible about those who preach another Jesus…

    you are right anon “you have all the answers’ and you really have it all worked out. You know what.. I don’t have all the answers but I know that God is HOly, Mighty and Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it and I also know that false preaching and teaching is horrible.. the devil himself comes masquerading as an angel of light. People can seem to be well meaning but they end up ruining people’s lives preaching nonsence like generational curses, soul ties and mumbo jumbo health wealth gospel blah blah blah.. teaching that you can boss angels around and that you are ‘elite’ and above everyone.. teaching that the likes of Todd bently has power to transfer an annointing.. well anon, That is Not the gospel!!!!!

    When Ncmi get back to Jesus and real gospel, then fine but right now many are teaching lies!

  19. I am reluctant to answer your post because it is so long, I would not know where to start.
    This is what I will say. I hope you walk close to the Father while you spend out your days at NCMI. I hope you find blessings and I hope that you through the church can do well in your service to God.
    This blog is obviously not going to change, so I ask you please to stop your attack. I wish no quarrel with you as a congregant, but my quarrel is with the church.

    God Bless you.

  20. Then we are in some agreement “getting there”. We both agree that Jesus didn’t come into the world to Condemn it but give grace and save it. I don’t have all the answers “GT” I’m just passionate about the grace of Jesus. I am not totally familiar with Tod bentley and his teachings, i have heard of him though. So i can’t argue or have an opinion of him.
    I don’t know about transferring annointing or that stuff, but i know the Holy Spirit and God’s annointing. I choose to stick to the simplest of truth’s that jesus is the good news, and what the gospels teach about right living in the new testament, post Cross. I don’t preach another Jesus, friend.
    Even if Tod is wierd…NCMI are not wierd. I may even find the things done a bit wierd and choose myself not to agree with it all, but i also know that if i don’t like what he does i wont be excommunicated or scorned for thinking otherwise, that’s the freedom i have (to accept or not accept the teaching of Tod Bentley) whether I’m in NCMI or not. The fact that i can have this freedom of difference is why i stick to them.
    Tod Bentley isn’t on the translocal team of ncmi anyway, he is with Fresh Fire Ministires, so why are you upset?
    NCMI may have a realtionship with this man, i dunno? But even if they do there’s nothing wrong with building relationships with other ministries, you never know what you may learn from eachother, NCMI has thier head on straight, and are unlikely to be swept away into wierd doctrine or anything like that.

    I also find it intriguing that you have no rebuttles to the things i pointed out in my last entry “GT”…..hmm.
    realise my entry was so long i just had to point out alot in response to previous blog entries here. I just hate when scriptures are twisted out of thier true context, to suit the motives of people who endeavour to push thier ill agendas.

    • Anonymous/Anon Again – so far all you have done is parrot the NCMI company line with a good dose of venom. You sign your posts with “love” and “xoxox” but there is NONE of that in what you are saying.

      Two people on all these posts: Brendan Magill and Anonymous are involved in NCMI. I notice they have been openly aggressive and demeaning in their attitude towards “non-NCMI folk” (as the jargon goes). Please guys – if you are going to stick up for NCMI, don’t validate all the bad things that everyone is saying about them!

      I was HEAVILY involved in a quite well-known Australian NCMI church for 10 years. I was there during the “Rob years” and afterwards. I will say one thing and one thing only – I left because I could not continue attending and keep telling myself I believed in the bible. All the other stuff you guys already know from personal experience.

      I have nothing personal against any one person, am still friends with a number of people who are involved with NCMI and plan to stay friends with them, and respect Dudley Daniel immensly. The fact that NCMI has gone off the rails was a sad but inevitable occurrence. It has taken me years to get over what was done to me spiritually, but I am grateful that in spite of this, I left in MUCH better shape than when I came. This was due to genuine people within “the ranks” (more jargon) who I built genuine friendships with, who loved me and helped me through my darkest time to date, and whom I am still in relationship with.

      NCMI is doctrinally errant on a number of levels, but so is most of the rest of the church. People who have been hurt by NCMI need proper recognition and care as it is a serious issue that should be addressed. If you are happy in NCMI – that’s great, you’re doing better than I ever did!

      Anon, I will agree on one thing you said – we will all be together in eternity, so let’s keep it non-personal so we don’t have to spend the rest of eternity avoiding each other in corridoors.

      Brendan Magill – I am not afraid to post my name – but maybe you should think twice before putting yours next to such an outburst!

  21. My answer was short because your post was an obvious attack. It was also a ramble. This is not the place for such an argument. Your point has been made and I have approved every single one of your posts. I will however be willing to enter into conversation with you via email. Would this be ok?

  22. Dear Concerned,

    Wow! The guts to write this blog! I do think that Rob Rufus and NCMI are 2 different issues.

    I am afraid that I concur with you on the abuse, control etc and that is my experience across SA, UK and USA. Nothing of Aus but hey that’s where the headquaters are. I do accept that there are people who still carry the NCMI banner and who do not exercise this but I don’t know for how much longer they will carry the banner. I also accept that there may be a few places where control has not set it … but consider yourself bless and in the majority.

    Regarding Rob … he’d probably agree with much of what you write. He is all for sound doctrine and the gospel of grace (without works for salvation or keeping it) and the fruit of that message. He presents this very clearly that God hates sins but that the cross has adequately dealt with your sin. He over and over again has said its not a licence to sin but that grace is empowering over sin because the strength on sin is the law. Get the law off people and they get free. He also wants people free.

    My guess is that you disagree with charismatic theology??? Well, who has the true doctrine???

    • Rob does not agree I’m afraid – I did email him my issues. He clearly stated that he is very pro NCMI. Thank you for your comment

  23. oops! typo! make that the minority!

  24. Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog. :) Cheers! Sandra. R.

  25. I can’t believe I finally made it through all these comments. :-)

    But I have one question that doesn’t seem to be answered but it referred to often, what doctrine did you hear / was taught that was incorrect? Can you help me by naming those in point form? I get lost in all the paragraph after paragraph. Thanks, I appreciate it.

  26. That’s easy! The Holy Scriptures! Follow them and you will not err.

  27. Hi I used to attend NCF in PMB and while I never heard of sexual abuse (???) I think there is a level of control and law and grace mixed. I used to be a home group leader so I was in leadership there. My husband and I sold our house and bought land to build and got told by our over seeing elders that we should have come to them first! Really???? As if I have no common sense of brain of my own. Also when we wanted to get married they tried to act like they had rights to give my hand in marriage and not my father! They even phoned my father to “check” if he’d given my husband permission to marry me!! SERIOUSLY WTH is that??? if not control? Also when we were immigrating to Aussie they refused to pray for us and refused to even tell the church we were leaving, they did this with a number of our friends. We are called to Australia and not to NCMI and because of that we according to them have heard God wrong but since being here and moving into ministry I can assure you we have not heard God wrong. I am grateful for the teaching I received there a lot of it was sound and is standing me in good stead now BUT I have to say there is a lot of control there……..just didn’t realize it was so wide spread WOW! Oh btw LOVING Rob Rufus atm ;)

    • Well, chances are it was the same church I used to attend and your experiences sounds very similar to what we witnessed.

    • When we moved country they also wouldn’t let us leave with “a blessing” because they wanted us to stay. They were annoyed that we didn’t ask permission to leave (and follow our life dream). Then they pretty much never spoke to us again because we “broke covenant” – apparently the act of attending an NCMI church means you have signed control of your life over to them (whether you like it or not.)
      Or perhaps they didn’t want to have anything to do with us any more as we weren’t “building the same way” or “sharing values.”
      Many years on now and I still feel hurt when I think about it.

  28. When once attending a NCMI church in a foreign country, I noticed there was a lot of control over the people in attendance there. After informing the leadership at this NCMI church of my missionary endeavors I was about to embark on, they had their lieutenants watch my every movement. For example, after a church service in conversation with a member, the leaders would attempt to listen to what I was saying. Whatever I was saying, I thought in the beginning, genuinely interested them until I quickly discovered was not the case but the very opposite. I would notice that their spies would follow me to whoever I was conversing with after a church service, and stand at hearing distance. This became quite obvious and kind of ridiculous. Those who had been at this church for long obviously never minded the control – like they found security in this I found – instead of in the Lord. A lot of the members there were tarred with the same brush as the leadership; kind of like birds of a feather flock together – at service to the hierarchy.
    Upon entering that church could be sensed exclusiveness, and humility and meekness grossly lacking. It was not long before I could see through the pretense.
    A lot gets spoken about the abuse of peoples finance by some “leaders” of the Church, but what about the proud exclusiveness and control being exercised. This is very subtle and greatly damaging. This proud exclusiveness and control I found taking place in an NCMI church I attended.
    NCMI’s apostles and prophets, I have discovered, are not all properly grounded theologically, are shallow spiritually, and do not always teach the truth. They take a spiritual truth, expand on it and take it to another level and then think they have the answer to new revelation knowledge. Sticking to the basics of Scripture is imperative – one can never go wrong with this.
    Ministering in Africa and having experienced the humility and meekness the africans have, is easy on being able to express oneself, sensing their love and acceptance of you as a brother or sister in Christ.


  29. I was involved with a NCMI start up in Canada. The group I was involved with like to use a short form version of the bible. Anything to do with sin, self judgement, punishment of believers, confession of sin etc. was simply ignored. Everyone attending was assumed to be a sinless, perfected saint and anyone who joined them was expected to have all the gifts of the Spirit or else you just don’t cut it as a believer. Of course you had to speak in tongues and to prophecize and tell everyone these amazing dreams you had. If you criticized or brought in scripture that contradicted anything, you were simply called a legalist!!! Frankly, they were all talk and no action. It’s like Rob Rufus ministry in Hong Kong. Check it out. All these great white folks who don’t even have the respect to learn to speak the language of the city then look down on Asians and non-whites. They just preach to the con-verted. Like when it came to forming a real church in our city, after preaching this great sermon on Christ provides everything, the so-called great white leader leader opted for some cheap room rented twice per week so he could jet set around without any responsibility, yet he could tell others how God will take care of everything. I have never felt such a sense of complete and total betrayal in that place. The people are so brainwashed and afraid that if they say anything contracictory, no will talk to them. It’s pathetic really.

  30. I am sure that if all of us were standing next to someone in a sickbed we would all forget our differences and pray.
    Sounds simple but it works.

    • True, but after we had prayed we might want to know why they are sick and how we can help and how we can prevent others becoming sick.
      To grow and move forward requires honesty, discussion and thinking.

    • From experience John, an NCMI person would only pray for the sick person if: 1) They were approved to be prayed for by the elders 2) the sick person had attended a LTT and had a understanding of why they were being prayed for 3) the sick person did not give the elders the impression that he was sick for ulterior motives 4) the sick person had submitted his financial statements to the eldership.

      • You’re experiences are completely and utterly contrary to the church I attend currently. IF that is indeed what is happening at this church then talk to some elders of another NCMI church b/c I’ve never even heard of such a thing.

      • Talking to the elders of other churches does not always work. We have had experiences where we garner a pastors support by not mentioning the NCMI affiliation part of a church we are complaining about. As soon as we drop the coin on the “Relating to NCMI” thing, they turn tail and defend.

        I am however not suggesting people do not try

      • LOL

  31. john, on July 19, 2011 at 7:22 am said:

    I am sure that if all of us were standing next to someone in a sickbed we would all forget our differences and pray

    This is direct from the Rob Rufus website …. and I am not pulling your leg:

    “Three people with back pain had one leg shorter than the other and as we prayed their shorter leg grew out to the same length as the longer one. ”


    It is of interest that Rob Rufus preaches the gospel of Grace, yet if you read your scriptures carefully there is no Gospel of Grace …. there is the Gospel of God’s Grace, there is the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of His Son …. but there is no Gospel of grace. And this is where the such personal ministries like Rob Rufus and NCMI go off base … they preach another gospel … and nobody preaches another Gospel better than Rob Rufus …”If all you can give me is head knowledge from the Bible then don’t come near me – I don’t want to be associated with you.” … translation: if anything in scripture contradicts the Gospel of Rob Rufus, then he doesn’t want to hear from you ….

    • Interesting what you say here. I know that Rob and NCMI are using Grace as a licence to do whatever is new under the sun, but I never looked at it this way. I have some reading to do!

      • You know someone once told me that people will forgive you for anything except for being insincere. That is the experience I had with NCMI. They preach grace and grace and more grace and yet when it comes to insisting on the facts of the gospel and living by the Word of God as revealed by the Gospel of God’s grace, you get labelled and legalist, shunned and expelled.

        I have this comment for NCMI, especially Rob Rufus who preaches Spirit drunkeness and on demand miracles:

        Acts 2.4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

        Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

        The initial church could speak in tongues so that each individual listening could hear the Word of God in their own heart language.

        OK … so can Rob Rufus preach the gospel in Chinese? .. cantonese, manadarin or any other Chinese dialect? So how is it he can perform healing miracles and yet he cannot even preach the world according to the original church who he claims to represent?

        By the way, there is a simple and complex answer to this … but I will stick with the script …

        Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves…..Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,….Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

        We are living in the end times age and if we fix our our eyes on the cross we will not be deceived. The deception comes from those who preach another gospel that cause us to take our eyes off of Christ and the Word that He speaks directly to each one of us.

  32. I recently started attending an NCMI church. I never heard of them before and I quite frankly don’t care about “labels”. I’ve been a born again believer for 16 years and I don’t go to church to find Christ or to walk out my “calling”. I go to church to worship God and fellowship with like minded believers. The hope is that they are also serving the physical and spiritual needs of the community. However, if they aren’t that doesn’t impact my role and calling to reach out to my community and do what I can to help those less fortunate. I believe that there are many people on this site as well as many other sites out there that have “gripes” abou their churches are people that probably lack self-confidence and haven’t the maturity to stand on their own two feet in Christ alone. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to be hurtful but more of an experiential observation. You find with some people that they are “abused” in many different organizations.

    I’m not talking about real physical or sexual abuse. If that is occurring call the COPS! Run, GET HELP, DON’T STAY!

    I’m talking about a percieved abuse of time, resources and efforts. People that are so-called taken advantage of are often times people that aren’t volunteering because they believe in what it is that they are volunteering for but are looking for acceptance or meaning in their life. When they’ve burnt themselves out on meetings, practices, missions work and ministry they then turn around and lash out at the very thing they were trying to find acceptance from. A flawed group of people that are usually trying their best to Glorify God, I’m not saying that NCMI is infallible nor am I defending any illegal acts or real abuses that have happened at the hands of an NCMI member or leader…but just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean the couple million other members are too….

    I feel bad for many of you and especially for anyone who has suffered any illegal abuse but many of you are quite frankly people that are looking for acceptance through the Church instead of Jesus and you will always be let down until you change your mindset.

    I’m not claiming that I’m perfect at it but I value myself and my wife enough to not allow myself or her be used and/or abused or “guilted” into doing something that does not bring glory to Christ. Wake up people and use the God given discernment that the Holy Spirit has sent to us all.

    On a side note, so what if Tyrone Daniels is rich? Has anyone dug into his background enough to see if he’s a successful business man or inherited money or married into it? Why do you assume and throw accusations that it MUST be from the church????

    I don’t know where it comes from either but there seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping of an entire organization b/c of a few dozen complaints from around the world? Are you kidding me? How many millions of people are in NCMI related churches and you think that there isn’t going to be someone in leadership that makes a mistake from time to time. And give me a break if any of you on here wouldn’t be secritive if some guy was asking you a bunch of private questions so he could post them all over the Internet to make you look bad? A little bit holier-than-though, don’t you think?

    My name is James Bettis and I attended Vineyard Christian Fellowship for 11 years in Baltimore and when I moved to Colorado I wanted to find a community of people that loved Jesus and wanted to see his Kingdom grow. I’m not afraid to post my name because there is nothing to fear? I’m not sure why any of you would have anything to fear by simply sharing your thoughts and opinions? I don’t think there is an NCMI Dept of Homeland Security coming to get you because you disagree with their practices or have grievances against some of their members and leaders… I welcome any responses that are sincere.

    • However, if they aren’t that doesn’t impact my role and calling to reach out to my community and do what I can to help those less fortunate.

      I am going to make it very clear right now that I do not believe every NCMI church is bad. I believe that most NCMI churches cover for each other. I believe that the system protects churches that are hurting people. From my experience, and from testimonies I have heard from many others – If the church was not supporting the community, and you went “solo” you were in for a world of hurt, condemnations and battles with people who called themselves followers of Christ.

      I believe that there are many people on this site as well as many other sites out there that have “gripes” abou their churches are people that probably lack self-confidence and haven’t the maturity to stand on their own two feet in Christ alone. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to be hurtful but more of an experiential observation. You find with some people that they are “abused” in many different organizations.

      I’m not talking about real physical or sexual abuse. If that is occurring call the COPS! Run, GET HELP, DON’T STAY!
      I’m talking about a percieved abuse of time, resources and efforts. People that are so-called taken advantage of are often times people that aren’t volunteering because they believe in what it is that they are volunteering for but are looking for acceptance or meaning in their life. When they’ve burnt themselves out on meetings, practices, missions work and ministry they then turn around and lash out at the very thing they were trying to find acceptance from. A flawed group of people that are usually trying their best to Glorify God, I’m not saying that NCMI is infallible nor am I defending any illegal acts or real abuses that have happened at the hands of an NCMI member or leader…but just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean the couple million other members are too….

      I understand that you think you are not being hurtful, but I have to say that a statement like that “STINKS”. People in abusive churches, where they are forced to comply with a specific set of beliefs that are inverted to the bible, will suffer some form of retribution from people who prey on the people who feel the confidence to stand with Christ alone. Like me, I believe that the only priest I need is Christ, my High-priest and me, in a Royal Priesthood, through Christ’s blood. This type of attitude is a church that promoted a Apostolic hierarchy was not applauded but shunned. Individualism is not something that can stand in a church that requires Hive-like thinking! Yes, there are the week that will be used and used until they crack. They are equally a target for people who see them as easy workers etc. For you to make a statement that it is somehow the fault of the person who was abused seems ludicrous and I believe as has been proven on this blog before, very much in line of the NCMI attitude. I think you should look at the example of Christs ministry and tell me how Christ would have treated the weak? Tell me how he treated the vulnerable?

      On a side note, so what if Tyrone Daniels is rich? Has anyone dug into his background enough to see if he’s a successful business man or inherited money or married into it? Why do you assume and throw accusations that it MUST be from the church????

      I actually tried to phone the church and speak to Tyrone about this. As a Non-Profit, the pastor should have been able to explain this without problems. Instead I received an attack on my person from Rory. To this day NO letter detailing questions I have for Tyrone has been answered. No open letter detailing elders lies and doctrinal errors has been answered. This weblog is the online opposition to NCMI and it gets a lot of visitors. I have said before, and the offer still stands. Tyrone is welcome to speak to me personally and I will be happy to listen to his side of the story – I would also hope that he would be happy to listen to mine. I do not wish for NCMI to be destroyed or dismantled. I do however want them to see that they are doing some things, and creating certain systems that are hurting the flock. Until this day, not one elder, or leader in NCMI has really shown interest in listening to the problems and making a change.

      I don’t know where it comes from either but there seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping of an entire organization b/c of a few dozen complaints from around the world? Are you kidding me? How many millions of people are in NCMI related churches and you think that there isn’t going to be someone in leadership that makes a mistake from time to time. And give me a break if any of you on here wouldn’t be secritive if some guy was asking you a bunch of private questions so he could post them all over the Internet to make you look bad? A little bit holier-than-though, don’t you think?

      I could show you many places in this blog where I have stated that NOT EVERY NCMI CHURCH IS BAD! I could also show you places where I say that the members and congregates ARE NOT BAD. Do I really have to keep saying it?

      My name is James Bettis and I attended Vineyard Christian Fellowship for 11 years in Baltimore and when I moved to Colorado I wanted to find a community of people that loved Jesus and wanted to see his Kingdom grow. I’m not afraid to post my name because there is nothing to fear? I’m not sure why any of you would have anything to fear by simply sharing your thoughts and opinions? I don’t think there is an NCMI Dept of Homeland Security coming to get you because you disagree with their practices or have grievances against some of their members and leaders… I welcome any responses that are sincere.

      My name is here for you to read. I have also stated in the past which church I attended. I have had Pastors do homework on me, looking for ways to discredit me, as yet unsuccessful. People who feel they need to stay anonymous could have many reasons for doing so. They could still have family in the church, they could work for a boss who is NCMI, There are really many reasons, and their choice to keep their identity secret should be respected

  33. Hi Forced to Hide, you are on the right track…any bible preaching God fearing body that locks the poor and lost out ‘their’ properties as well as their hearts has not got close to the heart of God….or has pastors who don’t believe in ‘stroking’ the sheep. Keep focussed on Jesus, He has said the way is narrow and few are they who find it. There are many seriously flawed theological teachings and it is a mixture of law and grace to suit the bank balance….but God is very merciful..He is not willing that even one will be lost….

    We must ask Him to fill our hearts with deep compassion so we can pray for those who are perishing..

    Paul explained what happens where law is preached…

    2 Corinthians 3:12-18 NIV

    Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    Man will always fail but Jesus has not….IT IS FINISHED.

    If we stay in the Spirit He will teach us everything..

    John 14:26-27 NIV

    But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    So instead lets do what Jesus has taught us…

    Matthew 5:43-48 NIV

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    And as taught by the apostle Peter..

    1 Peter 2:12 NIV

    Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    And keep on sounding a warning as we are living in the last days and they are perilous indeed.
    God has warned us…

    2 Timothy 3:1-5 NIV

    But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

    Many are ferocious wolves in sheep’s clothing…
    Be very alert…we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling…

  34. I was on leadership in Solid Ground ground church for almost 5 years. SPIRIT OF CONTROL AND ABUSE… and all in the name of “The King and His Kingdom”. No grace. No love. But hey! What a wonderful coffee shop. And hey! Look at our building. And hey! we are going to France and Holland and the States to “preach the Gospel”… but we’ll kick in our heals when the call comes from Zimbabwe and Mozambique because you can’t buy Converse Tekkies, you can’t get an extension for your I pad , I phone and Mac… and you can’t “catch each others hearts” over a cup of coffee. I LOVE JESUS CHRIST and I love Jesus’ church…. but this is not church. This is a cult. What started in the Spirit has now ended in the flesh – Galations 1vs6… Oh and here’s the kicker…. when God does remove the scales from your eyes and you realize you have been building for man and not for God, and you confront the eldership team and then leave, you are called “lepers” and, “its better that you have left as you will spread your disease to other people”. Now that’s the love of Christ right there hey? Thank you Christ Jesus that I am free at last, and although I still struggle with unforgiveness, your GRACE is sufficient for me for today.

    • Yes.
      I laughed as I read your statements, nothing has changed.
      You will survive.

    • There was a ‘sharp dispute’ between Paul and Barnabus. At least one of them must have been mistaken. But did they stop spreading the Gospel to take up a position pulling down the other? No. How it must grieve the bridegroom to see his bride have her weaknesses and faults published. Do you have the love of Christ in you? Then pray to God to bless and nurture others, especially those whom you think have lots of faults and sin. Whatever you do, let Jesus be glorified. This will not include publishing the (perceived or real) faults of others who name Christ as King.

      • Jehovah Witness name Christ as King, as do the SDA church and the Mormons. The Roman Catholics name Him as King and as God. Children of God holds the same belief in the nature of Christ as we do yet they still have sex with each other outside of marriage. Will you condemn them? Will you be Critical? Will you go to carm.org and tell them to shut their website? Do you believe that a church that’s promotes heresy is part of Christs church. Did Peter take the rebuke to heart and change his ways? Did Paul not record the rebuke for the church to read? Would paul have blogged?

        Lots of questions which kinda put things into context

      • At almost every LTT and every week at church our NCMI church and visiting team guys criticized “the church down the road” they had a huge chip on their shoulder with another denomination. If NCMI don’t like criticism, all I can say is, karma is a bitch and you reap what you sow.

  35. some of you are going to such lengths to nail NCMI as a whole. My question to you is… Have you attended every single NCMI plant around the world? If not, i think you need to be more specific on where you are from instead of trying to burn them and all the good they have done over the years.

    It is the same as saying that VW is terrible cause the one day you service your car at bryanston and they were slow…

    • From my point of view it I speak from a New Covenant Fellowship, PMBurg perspective but I have taken grievances higher than that to Tyrone Daniels. I have also had a lot of run-ins with pastors from all over the world and have had some interesting debates.

      I think what you are really asking is if I believe all NCMI churches are bad. That is a judgment that I can not really make but from experiences I have had with many elders from many geographic areas it appears that most are in serious problems

  36. Okay , firstly I have left my name + e-mail adress unlike weakly anonymous comments. So ‘anon’ , when did you experience SEXUAL ABUSE at NCF Church that is utter rubbish! I lead elder has his masters in theology might I add. But most importantly if you people were Christians like you claim you are. You would not criticise churches you would pray for them. You would inform them directly of their downfalls. So why don’t you have a moment with your God instead of having a moment with on the internet with your narrown minded ‘intellect’ . Again I’d like to say I have left my email adress. You are more than welcome to contact me. You are a disgrace to Christians really. How dare you criticise churches. If they weren’t of God . They wouldn’t exist.

    • Your name is chunksoflinda? Also, people can’t see your email. I can, but I am admin.

      Grant has a masters? As far as I know he has a masters in financial management. I could be wrong. If he did study theology, where did he study?

    • “Chunks Of Linda” congratulations on bravely leaving your name. Thanks for the lols.

  37. Hi Forced to Hide

    First off I would like to say thank you for starting this blog. I think that it’s really important that people who have had horrible experiences know that they are not alone so thanks! I was also a member of NCF in Pietermaritzburg and was quite involved at one time and spent a lot of that time at their offices helping out. I was going through a particularly difficult time in my life and I wanted to get involved in the church as much as I could as I really needed to regain focus and get closer to God. I thought that by spending more time around godly people would help.

    I unfortunately made the mistake of confiding in and trusting a couple of the elders – one who specifically I thought was a friend. While speaking to this particular elder I noticed that they started revealing intimate details about experiences other members of the church had gone through. At the time I thought that it was because of our friendship that these details were being revealed to me as they were obviously very personal to the people involved and I couldn’t imagine that these people would like them spread around.

    After a short time I realised that I was being treated differently not only by the elders I had confided in but also by others. I noticed people starting to avoid me and my elder friend stopped responding to emails etc. If I ran into someone they were very uncomfortable around me and if we spoke they were almost a little too friendly. It sounds ridicuous but it felt as if some type of meeting was held, I was discussed and it was decided that it was best to avoid and ignore me. If I tried to speak about the situation I was brushed off and after a while I started feeling like I was the problem. If I hadn’t had a strong christian base I think I could very well have judged the church in general and even worse God by their behaviour.

    Within a couple of months I was done with my day to day involvement with NCF. I tried just being a regular church member but I realised that I just didn’t fit in so after 5 years have now moved on. Since then I have spoken to many people who also had similar experiences at NCF a few who have since also moved on. I have even been to a service where a normal church going friend has been used in an example within the teaching where very personal details were revealed about him and he was openly being mocked. And this by a pastor he believes is a very close friend. The congregation probably wouldn’t have known who the pastor was talking about as at time my friend was based at another site. But still…..

    I would caution anyone reading this to be very careful about who they speak to and who they confide in at NCF especially among the elders.

    All that said, during my time at NCF I met a lot of wonderful, amazing christians who really just love God and genuinely care for each other and those around them. People who make NCF a home to so many and I really pray that they will not experience anything that many people are sharing on this site.

  38. Wonder what God thinks about all these self-righteous, criticizing, oh so holy comments about leaders and the church! Surely it is God’s job to judge and our job to pray????

    • Your comment is also pretty judgmental. You mock and say that people who comment here are self-righteous. That is an insult. Should you not pray instead?

      Praying for church leaders and no criticism of false teaching, false prophesy and not taking into account the well being of the flock is a total fallacy that I am certain the very leaders referred to in these texts love to hear and push.

      There is plenty of biblical basis for the rebuke of the above mentioned. The bible even says you should turn them out your towns.

  39. Wow, have I been disappointed to read some of the comments in this blog. Guys, if NCMI isn’t for you then move on, hand them over to the Lord and get focused in on what you are called to do and let God deal with those offending churches. I joined up with a NCMI when it was still NCM and there were about 20 churches relating around South Africa so that goes back 26 years. Do you think that I have always agreed 100% with everything that has happened (good or bad) of course not, we all miss the prompting of the Holy Spirit from time to time, and I know that I have and do but please don’t write me off. Do I think that NCMI is the only way to Salvation? Most definitely not. Do I think that NCMI gets it right the whole time? Don’t be ridiculous. If you have been offended by NCMI do yourself a favour and let it go because all that you are doing is hurting yourself, so once again let God deal with deal with the offending churches, if they are wrong then let the Lord shut them down because it up to Him and not us to judge. I am sure that someone will pull this apart but I have been part of the Storehouse (NCMI) in Port Elizabeth for 26 years and I am not in leadership (so I am not protecting fellow leaders). So if some of our brothers and sisters in Christ have blown it, forgive them and find your calling.
    Gordon Cowie

  40. The repeated suggestions that anyone posting a negative experience should move on, shut up and do something productive is just nasty. As is the inference that God hates them.

    Muslim religious fundamentalists have Sharia Law, it deals out a form of justice. NCMI has a justice/accountably system that says “Shut up, and leave it to God and pray you infidel”

    Been raped? – “Leave it to God and pray and go find something productive to do with your life.”

    1.3 million dollars disappear from your building fund? – “Leave it to God and pray, God must be so sad you are causing trouble over this”

    “Leave it to God and pray” is nasty, thoughtless, and a brainless thing to say. It’s a super spiritual way of avoiding doing what is right.

    Imagine if you were interviewed by you local newspaper about an injustice and your response was ” Leave it to God and pray.”
    Every single reader in your city would think you were a brain dead, brainwashed fool.

  41. I am actually physically sick after reading this. I belong/ed to NCF pietermaritzburg. And I left recently to my mother’s dismay. It is just awful that “anonymous” experienced this!!! I actually have a tattered remnant of a relationship with god. And NCF has destroyed what faith I had.

  42. Hi brothers/sisters, I’m a deliverance minister (we cast out demons) and its important to understand when we submit to a spiritual authority (ie, a denomination, pastor etc), it allows the spirit at work to flow through the ranks. This is good if its the Holy Spirit (Gods perfect intention), but bad if we’ve given legal rights to another spirit to operate and spread through our structure. (see 2 cor 11:4). In NCMI’s case, at some time in the past (im not sure when), two major demonic spirits were allowed to enter the organization, and this is the reason we see their similar trademark characteristics throughout the NCMI churches.
    For those that cast out demons, these are the two to look for.. by name.
    1. “The Deceitful Faithful Servant”
    2. “Control”
    When the Holy Spirit told us these names a year back, we knew little of the NCMI church, but had family involved, as well as some friends. It wasn’t until later that we saw this trademark characteristic of strange and unexplainable faithfulness (above family – even eph 5 etc) and control. At the time, the Holy Spirit told us that the demon “The Deceitful Faithful Servant” was there to hide the role of “Control”.
    Remember, control is a form of witchcraft. If you’ve left NCMI, I would HIGHLY recommend the following steps in getting free:
    1. Tell Jesus “In Jesus Name, I break off all spiritual connections with NCMI and the leadership”
    2. say “I command in Jesus name, The Deceitful Faithful Servant and Control, GO in Jesus name!”.

    You will likely feel it manifest and leave. We have seen literally a dozen people set free from these two spirits that are travelling down the NCMI chains. Remember eph 6, our fight is not of the flesh, but spirit, and the control in NCMI is NOTof God. Hope this helps you guys.
    Please share any testimonies of deliverance you receive from this. I’m happy to help others get free too if you will leave details..

    Jesus is perfect love.. and we are all called to bring His perfect love into a VERY hurting world… What a King we serve!!

    In Jesus.

    • Hi Steve,

      Thanks for your comment but I would just like to point out that the owner of this site (me) does not support your view. The bible is inerrant, sufficient and inspired. We do not need anything but scripture. What you describe is extra-biblical.

      • Hi, thanks for taking the time to give me feedback. In summary, I wanted to let people know that if they have come under control of NCMI, that’s its good to take authority (and biblical) over that control, and command it to leave.. I can shorten/summarize or remove the parts you are uncomfortable with and repost if that’s ok. I fully respect your site and overview. I can even write the same thing without mentioning ‘demons’ if that was your concern. my motive; We’ve seen many set free specifically from control that’s come from this organization, and its a genuine spiritual problem within the church. My heart is to see people set free to serve Jesus.. and i’ve seen what control does to people .. and entire families… if that’s ok, let me know, and i’ll repost something with your suggested modifications.
        Again, thanks and blessings in Jesus.

  43. Hi Steve, i understand that you feel there is a “spirit of control and deceit” in NCMI. i agree and disagree, here’s why. No-one needs the Holy Spirit to work this out, even non-Christians who looked into how NCMI works could figure this out. Here’s why – they are pretty blatant and it’s plain common sense. We all have brains that can figure this out.

    Also why put the blame on a “spirit” when it is the purposeful actions of leaders and thoughtfully chosen direction of NCMI. They themselves are responsible for their own choices and behavior. They are not being mislead by evil spirits, but working in a self serving way to make people stay at their church so that they will have an income and be able to make a living.

    You don’t need deliverance, you simply need to decide not to be manipulated and controlled any more. We are in complete control of what we choose to put up with. Often people are already aware and only stick with it (ncmi) because of friendships and community.

    I absolutely agree with your idea to wake people up to this and get them to stop living in an unhealthy controlling situation. I’m glad you posted, I think these things need to be said and talked about.

  44. Hi Anon, Thanks for your reply.
    Yes, i agree.. there is a need to recognize control and do something about it.. The Bible tells us to expose evil(eph 5.11), but then goes on to tell us that our battle is not only with the flesh, but with dark spiritual powers (eph 6).
    I don’t believe everything is a demon.. far from it… and you are right, we are certainly responsible for our sin, and will be so on the day of judgment. however, having said that, our sin can open doors for a demonic foothold (eph 4.26) and Jesus answer to this is to use the authority we have in His name, and deal with it (matt 10:8, mark 16.17)
    We find that any form of unholy control opens demonic doors, and gets people in bondage. This is the reason that people often struggle with their NCMI experience for many years later, to the point of keeping them out of church for years.. or longer.
    Satan’s task is to deceive and mislead us, but we have a much greater authority in Christ Jesus!
    So I would encourage people that still “feel” under some sort of spiritual bondage because of their experience of NCMI to do what I suggested above, and simply command it off in Jesus name. Hope this helps.. Blessings to you all in Jesus.

  45. Hi Steve, I do like to talk about this kind of thing. Here’s my thoughts. I don’t think that everything is so black and white. I don’t think everything is holy or unholy, or sinful or pure, deceived/mislead or on the right path.

    In reality we give things a try, sometimes they fail and we learn from our mistakes. We were not evil, but learning. In the scheme of daily life only a few things could be seen as truly evil.

    I believe Jesus wanted us to be assured that we were forgiven so we would be free to learn without constant condemnation. It means free to make mistakes.

    NCMI have made mistakes, like we all have and they need to learn from them.

    I think they are manipulating and controlling because they are afraid to lose people and they are afraid they will lose peoples money. Being a church leader is stressful because if people leave you have no money to pay your bills, or your staff. It’s your livelihood. What are they going to do if their church fails?

    So, really I don’t think they set out to be “evil” but just made bad choices, often financial, and it spiraled and got worse over time.

    To say that NCMI has a demonic spirit, for me, lets them off the hook for thinking, learning and taking responsibility for their actions.

    They need to work on not being so controlling. Being responsible, honest and transparent with finances would be step one. Church leaders need to do a small business course so they are prepared to create a stress free financial state. NCMI really set their leaders up for failure with some of their ideas. It’s time they changed them.

    I know they read this page, and I ask them to think about how to improve. For me, I am trying to appeal to their logic. Surely being in a stressful state where you need to manipulate and control people can’t be a nice way to live. You must know it is wrong or feels wrong.

    That’s my 2 cents!

  46. Hey Anon, Its a good 2c too, thx again for sharing.. and I agree not only with your view on our freedom in Jesus to realize and learn from our mistakes (emphasis on ‘our’), but also your suggestion of practical steps in dealing with the control issue.
    In dealing with these issues, we need to deal with the practical (wordly) and spiritual sides. We are told by Jesus that there is a relationship between what happens here on earth, and in the spiritual in Matt 18:18.

    About the spiritual side:
    We are told by Apostle Paul in 2 Cor 2:11
    “in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes”.
    So there is a spiritual side that we are warned about, and told to be aware of for the purpose of not being deceived by the enemy.
    Furthermore, we can see in 2 Cor 11:4 that the church can receive a different spirit than the Holy Spirit
    “or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted”
    You see, Paul was warning them they could receive a different spirit to the first one they received (the first one being the Holy Spirit, the second one much less holy!..).
    We see this often as we minister in churches. If the enemy has been invited in through sin such as control (NCMI), or preaching a false Jesus (such as JW’s etc), the doors are opened for a spirit that needs to be dealt with as much as the practical issues need to be dealt with.
    It all starts however, with conviction of sin, then repentance. My prayer is and has been that NCMI leadership will see the sin of unholy control, repent, allow the Holy Spirit to do His work… and then go preach the love and FREEDOM of Jesus to the world that so badly needs Him. Blessings in Jesus

  47. Acts5.38 : In montreal quebec the NCMI church evaporated. it’s so called pastor went on to build a bigger barn and the rest of congregations dissipated into nothingness ….

  48. I am a member of NCF in Pmburg. Let me describe myself to you prior to giving my life to the Lord. Criminal, alcoholic, fighter, trouble causer, thief etc. Let me describe the new me. Constantly assisted by NCF both materially and spiritually. Never once has anyone talked own to me or called my past up. I come and go as i please, if I feel like going to church I will. If I don’t I won’t. If I miss Friday pray meeting twice I will be asked if everything is alright out of concern not control. If this is cultist behaviour then so be it. I am a member of the body of Christ not a building and leaders. Let me know if any of you need some cheese with that whine.

  49. steve….i have experienced the controll of thos spirits in ncf pietermaritzburg. thank you for the confirmation. God bless you

  50. The condemnation, judgment, lack of love and life is so sad here. Friends, we are all sinners, and without Jesus, skip it, because our best efforts are an eternity short of pleasing Jesus. Let love actually win in your life and in our churches. Truth is, if you were not saved, and read these comments, tell me would you be closer to Jesus and pursuing his love or repulsed by the divisive words, hurtful and wreckless statements? I am honored to be associated with Dudley, Tyrone and others who are part of a movement that is historical. I pray blessings, life, hope and joy over these comments. You all matter so much to the life of the church. We have a world to win for Christ, It isn’t buildings or attendance or theology, but only LOVE that people will see and respond to. If you have a personal question, please email me anytime johnb@livinghopechurch.com Blessings and favor for each of you. Rest well

    • Hi John,

      As a pastor, I would like you to have this opportunity to set the record straight:

      1 ) Have you employed Jon Daniels?
      2 ) If you believe he is ready to be restored to leadership, is there a biblical precedent?
      3 ) did this decision have anything to do with you “being associated with Dudley, Tyrone and others who are part of a movement that is historical”?

      God bless

      • Hi Peter. Sorry for the delay. I don’t really need an ‘opportunity’ to state anything or set any record straight. As I said in my previous email, just talk to me. The Bible is clear my friend. If you have an issue with a person go to that person. My problem with most blogs, is we don’t. We talk about people to people more than talking to God or the person about the ‘person’ We judge more than give grace and we make assumptions more than we should. I was the unchurched guy that was so put off by the church, and not Jesus. I just couldn’t understand why people talked about and ‘apparently’ were judging each other.

        I make no assumption to that end, although many of these posts seeming to be conflicting, and albeit questions arise and they should, I think often what the world sees is not love. Our debates, and etc etc just become exhausting to us as brothers and sisters in Christ and to the world……we look straight up ridiculous. Just sayin….

        That said, if anyone has a question about me, Living Hope, Jon Daniels, (Tyrone or Dudley as related to this ‘debate’) call me. Email me.

        Seems my brothers and sisters that is the thing to do. So, my personal cell (which I have never given out on a public forumn like this) is +1 360-977-1310

        My personal email which I see every single day is johnb@livinghopechurch.com

        My parting words, and I haven’t and won’t engage in a debate is this.

        Love really as messy as it seems does win the day. I could comment about JD, Tyrone, and Dudley. I could. They are all men like each of us who have failed but who love Jesus. We are not called to comment about people publicly like this? Are we? Are we so much better? Help us Jesus.

        Dudley. I have met this Godly and humble man one time. We were eating fast food in Australia. Had it not been that I ‘knew’ who he was I would have never known. To start a movement that has made a mark on our generation in Jesus’ name…. Shame on us for discreting him publicly and not talking to him privately.

        Tyrone. The dude is a leader amongst leaders. I have talked to him a few times and am always left encouraged and left with an impression that Jesus believes in me more than I believe in me. Thanks Tyrone (if you ever see this).

        JD. He is one of my closest and best-est friends. Yep I am honored he is going to be on staff at the church I have the privilege to lead called Living Hope. He has walked through hell, and will be the first to say he has failed horribly and miserably. So hiring him is wrong? My guess friends is that most of us would not hire Paul, or David or Peter or ….the list goes on. I have zero desire to answer to anyone here and realize I will answer to the God who put breath in my body. I love JD and talked to Him first, after his dad, when he failed. He has repented. He has waited and he feels like crap. He is a young leader who wants what God wants but made a wrong choice. Who hasn’t? If you are without sin, please throw a rock through all of our computer screens.

        NCMI? I am not part of the movement but would gladly associate myself and our leaders with a band of brothers because frankly sometimes being a pastor is hard and when you feel like quitting and you are a lonely church planter (mega or whatever) you need a brother that will lift up your arms. A friend that will not judge but will love (LOVE) you. So, I say be part and rejoice or step away and stop gossiping. Simple choice.

        ME. I am just a guy who never wanted to be a pastor who hates stupid debates and who happens to lead a large church in the least churched part of America.

        Someone said maybe I am ‘humbled’ I am and… you are right. Humbled not because I feel humiliated, and not because of a blog post, but humbled that in less than 10 years we have seen over 9,000 people baptized. I am humbled because life is short and instead of talking about doctrine and things, why not talk about ways to reach our world?

        I love the movement and momentum of NCMI. As an ‘outsider’ I can say I am honored to know so many godly and spiritual leaders who ‘get it’

        In my country, sadly less than 3% of church growth is because of conversion. That is the bigger issue. Truly. We apparently debate good, but don’t really like each other (family members right)….

        Who am I to say anything, especially on a blog I am not the author of (By the way good blog)? I am just a guy blown away by the grace of God and the life of Jesus. I think we can do better (me included). Grace is our economy.

        Again. If you or anyone has a question about JD, please email me, and instead of talking about me, talk to me first.


        I believe honestly in every person who has ‘weighed in’ You matter. Grace has to win the day, our hearts and the lost.

        That’s my story friends and I am sticking to it…..

        Love and blessings.


      • Thanks for your reply. It is obvious that the accusations against you and Jon have not be published in this blog as a post but only in comments. It is always good to get both sides of the story, and I am glad you gave yours.

        As far as I am aware the previous owner of this blog contacted Tyrone for comment and was blown aside.

        I think you need to trust the Word of God for guidance into the matter of Jon. A biblical, Grace filled solution is advisable. It is also your responsibility as Pastor to ensure that your decisions do not hurt the flock (your priority is with the 9000 flock and not good friends). I pray your decisions (With the Word’s guidance) will be beneficial for the Kingdom.

      • FOLLOW the Money. Bishop has his own problems with drinking , pills and another woman. Our family has seen 1st hand Bishop and his assistant in situations very unbecoming for a pastor let alone any married man.Give it time and you will see that Bishop and Jon Daniels will be flying on the churches dime all over to share the story of how he has restored Mr Daniels and will gladly take the honorarium for themselves and not give a penny back to the church.
        Bishop and his wife make over $300,000 per year and believe they have a home in Mexico.Bishop says hes humble ??? read his comments its all about him. Yes God forgives anyone that’s a fact. The problem is not that Jon and Bishop have cheated on there wife’s its about the love of money and what good people will do to keep it and get more.

      • Its all about MONEY

      • I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at John Bishop’s response! JD is his ‘best friend’ so he chooses to look past the lies and deception. Can he answer on why he or no one in his family has ever contacted the ‘victim’ in JD’s adultery, not ever! When he was married to his first wife (the victim) they had John Bishop in their home along with his daughter. They were friends with her too and yet his ‘pastoral’ role never extended to her to see how her or her 3 children that JD chose to abandon, were doing. To hear that JD and Kathy were telling people that they had tried to reconcile with their spouses is such a lie. Neither of them ever tried to reconcile but played the victims and told people that their spouses would not take them back. Kathy’s husband begged her to get counseling while her response was coldly, “No, I’m going to be with JD!” JD and Kathy were never apart, even got caught by Kathy’s husband as JD hid his car in the garage of the house that the husband was forced to move out of. Her husband opened up the garage with his remote and voila, JD’s car was parked in there, while hers was parked outside. No deception there!!!

        I’m sure there are good leaders in NCMI but the foundation of NCMI chooses to ignore the victims of their beloved ‘golden child’. They have never once extended help to her or her children, not a single one of his family. The family that called her daughter, the family she laid down her life for! JD chooses to live on a different continent as he chose his new family leaving 3 children to now feel the spirit of rejection.

        Forgiveness is a most beautiful gift, I will never disagree with that. In that forgiveness is given, repentance too plays a part. Sin brings consequences; are we not allowing JD to feel his? His ‘heartache’ as he likes to call it, is by his choice. He could have chosen to live by his children and given up his birthrights in Kathy’s womb as he told many people he was doing. But he did not walk away from her, that spirit was one he chose to align himself with. So in enabling his lies and deception, John Bishop now aligns himself with that spirit too! And to now be restored as a pastor is horrifying. Yes, be in a church, work on yourself but do not be an overseer of sheep, you disqualified yourself in that when you chose adultery and never walked away from it, ever!

        Repentance means a sincere turning away, in both the mind and heart, from self to God. So if you are still living by your flesh you have not turned away!

      • Yes this is so sad, Bishop or his family never reached out to ReAnn but that’s understandable.I say this because Bishop is all about keeping the money connections close. JD has all the MONEY connections and his brother and father have millions. ReAnn has been our friend for over 6 years and what that RAT JD did hurt her so deeply.Bishop is no different we saw first hand he and his assistant Terry? in a local hotel bar together both very drunk and kissing.when bishop spoke at Costlands just before JD and Kathy started there affair.
        These two are both into Money and manipulating people to get what they need and want.

      • HELLO REV BISHOP. KNOCK KNOCK anyone home? . Did you ask any questions. He made no attempt to reconcile with his wife. His mistress made no attempt to reconcile with her husband.
        God told him to sell the church? Well did God tell him to leave his family.
        This all makes me sick and now you align your self with this fraudulent Charlatan.
        Coastlands moved back to o Halloran hill around 1999 buying the building from Edge. The church was bought outright and there was NO mortgage and additional 2 – 3 properties around the O’Halloran Hill site were purchased. With the idea they would be for youth, offices etc.
        Tyrone Daniels undertook leadership at this time.
        Tyrone handed leadership over to Jon Daniel in 2007, JD and his wife Reann had been leading Gateway church successfully and he was a popular preacher charismatic and amazing worship leader. Jon and Reann had 3 children and appeared to have a very loving family and relationship.
        Jon Daniel launched an ambitious expansion of the church in Adelaide opening Blackwood Campus (originally Frontier independently run by Illona and Steve Potter) and a church in Event Cinema in Marion in addition the city church site was launched. Tom and Jo O Neil, The Potters leaving their churches were appointed elders along with the Jon and Ali Pretorious, Rod and Jenny Dunsford, Gavin and Gail Clarke, Derek and Lianne Andrews, Nathan and Amy Dalton.
        JD announced in March/ April 2011 that God had told him to get out of debt. He commenced to close campuses Marion already closed and then to close Blackwood campus. Query if Blackwood was sold or a rented property this fact is unknown by this author as Coastlands keeps no financial records or annual reports to share with its congregation. He announced that the Hill had been put on the market. He also announced he was going to sell his family home just following “Gods message to get out of debt” as quoted by JD.
        At this time JD was having an affair with Kathy Ann Muldoon, married to Jamie Muldoon the couple had become close friends with JD and Reann and they went out together and Kathy often baby sat the Daniels children. Jamie was a mate of JDs who he frequently went out to coffee with. Sadly this close friendship between the couples, resulted in an illicit affair between JD and Kathy. During the time of his affair JD kept an enormously high profile preaching at the South and the City campus on Sunday morning and sometimes visiting Blackwood when it was still open.
        JD whilst having this affair managed to keep the secret from everyone including his wife. He persuaded Reann to sell the family home in Cormandal Valley sold in the region of low $600,000 this had been gifted to him by his father Dudley Daniel ( Church leader founder father figure and father of NCMI).
        During this time JD encouraged Reann to take out Australian citizenship. The day after he moved Reann and three young children into a rental at Malvern he flew to the UK. During this time JD had become very close to Tom O Neil no longer engaging so much with the other elders. Elder Steve Potter had challenged him at some point asking him what was going on between him and Kathy Muldoon.
        End of September 2011 the entire contactable number of the congregation were asked to go to an urgent meeting at the O Halloran Hill Campus. Here a tearful Reann fronted the entire congregation to tell them that JD had left her and that she had no idea what had been going on. This took enormous courage JD has never fronted the church at any time leaving his wife and other leaders to explain and to pick up the peices. Ben Whittaker took over to explain the simple facts: JD had been having an affair with Kathy Ann Muldoon and she was pregnant. A shell shocked packed house barely gasped in disbelief a few cried for Re anns obvious pain and distress. Most of us stumbled out of the building thinking did I just hear that??
        After the announcement several church members asked re finances all was evaded and barely answered by church leaders. Occaissionally an overhead of a simplistic pie chart was shown on the screen very briefly to “explain the finances”. For quite a time the congregation optimistically looked forward to a new honest beginning in a new building with the sale of the O halloran Hill site.
        This optimisim was later quoshed when those who pursued the leaders with some dedicated zeal learnt that only 900,000 dollars were left. Where did it all go? Business Class flights, nannies for the lead elder frequent trips away by all the elders. Too much rapid expansion in Adelaide. Various properties in the US, Adelaide and South Africa for the Dudley family. All from the hard earned sacrificed tithes of a faithful congregation over decades. No records = FINANCIAL ABUSE and complete lack of accountability.
        NCMI continues to take 10% from all of its church plants, Dudley Daniels Adelaide address is unknown all of his mail goes to a PO Box he is uncontactable via all normal methods. NCMI have launched a new website. Kingdom City Church located Warradale Primary School, Keynes Ave. is their church plant split away from Coastlands resulting from NCMI loyalists departing from Coastlands after a Ben Whittaker made the brave announcement he would like to depart from NCMI. Esimated size 70 – 90 people mainly from original coastlands.
        Ben Whittaker calls a united church meeting February 10 2013, in which he is prayed in and ordained as the official Lead Elder of Coastlands. One week later, Derek and Lianne Andrews announce their decision February 17th 2013 to leave Coastlands and start their own church causing a further split and taking several families with them estimated to be up to 70 people mainly from the City campus to launch a new church in the South.
        This paper is written by an anonymous author for fear of reprisals. I am a Christian with a yearning for the truth and that the issue of finances to be addressed in a Godly and honourable fashion. Those finances should be accounted for and if mis spent the lead elder of that time and his family the Dudley family should be made to make amends and or be prosecuted.
        A financial report should be a mandatory requirement demanded by church- goers who tithe faithfully into a church in the faith that careful consideration and prayer goes into how the money is spent. We all need to feel safe that leaders are accountable to God and to their fellow parishioners. We need to feel safe that one leader at the front is not given free rein to spend and do as he wishes and not be held accountable. This church should be audited by an independent body going back decades.
        Current Coastlands elders you too are accountable for what has happened with the misuse of finances you were all on the eldership team at the time of JD. This church has no pastoral care runs no programmes or courses all the elders get paid a full wage by the parishoners to do what? This church has now outward focus and has been run as a business not accountable to anyone. I hope this gets investigated.
        http://www.ncmi.nethttp://ncmifringe.wordpress.comhttp://www.coastlands.org.au/ Coastlands city church light square Adelaide. Coastlands South Christies Beach primary, maturin ave Christies Beach.

    • Hi John, welcome to the discussion :) Your opening insult that …. “The condemnation, judgment, lack of love and life is so sad here.” is original, it is interesting and different. Usually we are only told “misery loves company and birds of a feather flock together” which is the stock standard response from NCMI for any view that disagrees with theirs.

      Suggesting that we are stopping people from becoming Christians by stating the truth, acting sane and being honest is lame. You must know that is not true.

      It’s great to know that you are honored (and possibly humbled? :p) by being associated with a great historical movement.

      I do believe that divorced people are just as good as anyone else, a view that was not held by the “historical movement” while I attended. I’m pleased that things are changing as the condemnation of divorced people was something that always bothered me during my years in NCMI. It was as though there were some things that God never forgives and divorce was one of them. That’s just so untrue and it was cruel, these people have enough heartbreak without adding more.

      Just as you think I matter so much to the life of the church, I believe that honesty, accountability and sanity matters to the life of the church. I also believe that those who feel disappointed and frustrated with dishonest leadership should be able to speak and deserve a listening ear. I think that mistakes can be talked about and fixed, truth can be told, lies can be set straight and people can move forward in a better way.

      • Honesty is not a word Mr Bishop knows! He makes $300,000 per year and is asking people to give to help his son get off drugs. (Give forward website).These people always find a way to get others to pay there way. It makes us sick, this is why we and so many others have let his church.

      • : Boasting is a key trait of narcissism. The narcissist boasts about everything, exaggerating their achievements, success, wealth, education, occupation, conquests, power etc, anything in fact that helps them to build a grandiose image. The narcissist suffers from jealousy and envy, anything another person has they want, so they set out to get it. They use their grandiose image as part of their art of seduction in order to attract others to them for their exploitation. However, once they extract what they want from this person they loose respect for them, they are then soon discarded in a terrible fashion, often ruining their reputation in the process. The truth is that narcissists have little or no self-esteem or self-worth of their own (no such ego functions), in fact their boasting implicitly implies a serious lack of self-worth. Boasting has many advantages for the narcissist; to start with, it acts as a defense mechanism against feeling inferior. In order to mask their underlying feelings of inferiority, not just to the world, but to their own self, the narcissist has to maintain their image of superiority, and boasting helps them do that. When you are in their favour, then you will have to be prepared to endure a pretty much one sided relationship, where they are the constant topic of conversation, with their “I”, “me”, “my” and “mine”. If you do manage to talk about yourself, you will soon see them become bored and impatient with the conversation, and somehow the conversation switches back to them, and once again they are in the limelight.

      • Narcissism is a less severe form of psychopathy. NPC can manifest aggressive, paranoid and borderline characteristics, but it most commonly appears in the form of envy, greed, power lust, an extensively rationalized sense of entitlement, and a pathological grandiose self. Narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but unlike psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, and view people as ‘playthings’ to be used.

        In females, they tend to ‘sleep’ their way to the top. Male Narcissists tend to get ahead by getting involved in massive power struggles.

        It is thought that narcissism could be the result of severe mental or physical pain in childhood at the hands of a powerful, idealized mother-father figure. Also inconsistent parental attitudes on aggression and self-assertion and other childhood experiences of being valued for specific, precocious talents seem to be the prime determinants. The child never learned who to identify with–the aggressor or the victim. They developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners regardless of who was in the right or wrong. They feel they have the right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.

        Narcissism was not fully defined until the late 1980′s. It is estimated that between 5-7% of the population is affected with this disorder. Narcissists frequently have uncontrollable behaviors such as rage, and anger.

        Many times, other associated disorders accompany narcissism. Narcissists can rarely be cured, but other side effects and associated disorders such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), pathological lying, eating disorders, mood disorders and substance-related disorders and paranoiac dimensions can be modified.

        Pathological narcissism is a defense mechanism intended to deflect hurt and trauma from the victim’s “True Self” into a “False Self” which is omnipotent, invulnerable, and omniscient.

        Pathological narcissism is a defense mechanism intended to deflect hurt and trauma from the victim’s ‘true Self’ into a ‘false Self’ which is omnipotent, invulnerable, and omniscient. Patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) feel injured, empty and humiliated when criticized. They often react with rage and defiance to any slight, real or imagined. To avoid these situations, some patients with NPD socially withdraw and feign false modesty and humility to mask their underlying grandiosity.

        Interpersonal relations are typically impaired due to the lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement and constant need for attention.

    • FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!! Do the research! Jon Danial’s father has MONEY!!!!! Jon Danial’s has connections in South Africa with MONEY!!!!!. Bishops church has a 5 Million dept to pay to his parishioners in two years. Transparency is not what Bishops church is all about. We have tried to get answers about finances ,his drinking problem and indiscretions with another woman. but are stone walled each time.
      Bishop will not answer questions about money.He has fired people when they questioned him about stealing money from the church to buy a home in Acapulco Mexico. Yes Sir Bishop and Mr Danial’s are birds of a feather The truth hurts.

      • I would love to hear from you on your experiences as I’m trying to get as many facts as possible. If you would be willing to email me what you know, firsthand, I would greatly appreciate it. My email is seekingtruth83@gmail.com

      • Narcissists cannot handle being upstaged in any way; you must not be seen to be more powerful, more successful, more beautiful, more intelligent, in fact “more” anything. To do so renders you to becoming the narcissists arch enemy, an instant rival to be spoken of in an irreverent or impious manner. Narcissists are masters at using character assassination as a subtle railing tactic to undermine anybody who poses as a threat to their fragile self. Preoccupied with living in their fantasy of power and brilliance, their fragile ego is easily offended, and can often find offense where none is intended. Whether the threat is real or imagined, the aggressive, attacking and abusive narcissist will retaliate by setting out to expose and destroy any person who poses as a threat, and he will do it in any way possible; defame the person with lies and gossip without conscience, then happily by proxy, where they use others to become unwitting character assassins for them. Many narcissists operate through a “God Complex” that is so arrogant that they consider themselves as living Gods, and more than that, they are a god that does not submit to any mere mortal.

    • Really Pastor Bishop, just because you and others will not answer questions about finances , drinking , affairs and use of church funds for personal expenses is not condemnation. Being dishonest with people is what we are talking about.
      We are all sinners but not all of us use the church for personal gain.
      So Jon Danial’s is on his way to be a pastor at your church. Question if his father was not worth millions would you have hired him??
      I wonder how long it will be before your church will be part of NCMI?
      Research has found that your decisions have created over 5 million in debt for Living hope church wonder who will foot that bill? Dudley and his cronies. You saved his Son. Hmmmm wonder how he will repay that?
      integrity and above reproach I think not. The truth will come out it always does.

      • Well Pastors?

        Marriage is the only appropriate place for romantic intimacy to occur.
        Your extramarital romantic intimacy was/is sin.
        For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight. (from David’s confession of his affair with Bathsheba) Psalm 51:3-4

        Seek forgiveness from God
        God freely grants forgiveness to a truly broken and repentant heart
        If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

        Once you’ve received his forgiveness, your sins are never again counted against you
        2. Deal next with Yourself


        While God’s forgiveness is glorious, your spouse may not be able to respond as God does
        A restored relationship may take a very long time

        As you prepare to share this sin with your spouse, understand that they will be hurt. Avoid the natural tendency to defend yourself. A broken covenant hurts everyone involved. The one who broke it is bound to receive great blame and criticism. This is an unfortunate but necessary consequence of the sin.
        The future

        The road you are about to enter is a long one. One where you may not be trusted. One where your spouse may be suspicious, questioning and distant. As unwanted as this is, it is necessary. You will need to earn those back. This will take longer than you want. You must prepare yourself to allow those to develop in your spouse’s timing, not yours. (We’ll look at this in some detail later under Steps You Must Take.)
        3. Sharing an Affair with Your Spouse


        Pray for your spouse and your marriage
        Seek godly counsel.
        Determine the proper place and time.

        Explain why you are sharing this now and haven’t before.
        Give the big picture, not the details.
        Be prepared, though, to answer detailed questions.
        4. Ask for forgiveness for the impact your past has had on your marriage.
        Offer to discuss boundaries that will rebuild trust

        Don’t expect immediate results. Recovery can be slow.
        Understand that trust must be rebuilt.
        Obtain an accountability partner.
        Remember, that having an affair is a betrayal of a sacred promise. Your spouse’s response can vary between any combination of surprise, anger, depression, bitterness, desire for revenge and marital or physical isolation. Healing can be a long process possibly involving counseling with a third party. The exact combination of these depends on your spouse and your specific situation.

        Regardless of how your spouse responds, you must commit to the success of your marriage. While the power to continue the marriage has now passed into the hands of your spouse, your desire and resolve must be steadfast. Here are some keys to help you substantiate your commitment to your spouse.

        Pastor B Steps you must take

        Cut off all contact

        There can exist NO relationship or personal contact between you and the other person involved in the affair. Absolutely none! Extreme action may be necessary to accomplish this. It may even include changing jobs or moving to another state. Once this step is taken, no level of contact should be re-established.
        And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Matthew 5:30

        Set your priorities

        Faithfully pursue your relationship with God. This cannot be overstated. You will need God’s continued grace to remain steadfast in your commitment to your marriage. You will continue to grow in integrity and character as you grow in your relationship with God.
        Faithfully pursue your relationship with your spouse. Your marriage is the most important human relationship God has given you. Resist the temptation to prioritize your children, your work, or even your ministry above your spouse. Your spouse’s place in your heart must never be questioned.
        Rebuild trust

        The actual affair, in addition to the time that has passed from then to now, has built a wall between you and your spouse. While the affair was a large contributor, the time added to the wall one brick at a time. Therefore, taking that wall down will occur one brick at a time, as the days, weeks and months pass. Resist the temptation to become impatient.
        Answer questions your spouse has. They may want to know exactly what you have been doing at work all day. They may want a minute-by-minute report. With great humility, reply with honesty and grace. Don’t always wait to be asked. Readily share the details of your day. This will reassure your spouse that you are committed to an open relationship and to their accountability.
        Begin a “No Secrets Policy” – commit to answering all of your spouse’s questions. Other areas of your life that you may not have spoken of in much detail should be opened up to create a relationship environment of trust and vulnerability.
        Obtain an accountability partner. This can be someone more mature than you in the faith or another Christian at your level of maturity. The point is to develop a transparent relationship. Your accountability partner should have access to ask you anything, at anytime. You should call them if ever you are tempted to sin, either in your thoughts or in your body.
        Sometimes, the right thing is difficult. Sometimes, it seems impossible. And sometimes, the right thing has significant consequences. Such is the case in confessing an affair to your spouse. We cannot promise its ease. We cannot guarantee a certain conclusion. All we can say with certainty is this – it is right and it is obedient to the commands of God.

        As you take action in confessing an affair, place your trust in the forgiving God who has set aside your sin and chooses to remember it no more. Pursue him like never before. Rely upon him for your strength and comfort. Pray for his blessing.

    • Your honored to be associated with Dudley, Tyrone, Jon and others who are part of a movement that is historical. Question is could it be that all these men are loaded with money from there churches? Being responsible, honest and transparent with finances would be step one.
      I have read in this blog that JD’s church was sold for 2.2 mil.No one can get a answer about where all the money went.
      Friends from the Untied States have told me that your Church is in debt for over 5 mil? Is this true Pastor . Could this best-est friends rich family and connections have anything to do with him coming to America?
      What about ReAnn Pastor where is the LOVE you talk about?

      • I would love to hear from you on your experiences as I’m trying to get as many facts as possible. If you would be willing to email me what you know, firsthand, I would greatly appreciate it. My email is seekingtruth83@gmail.com

    • Leave it to God and pray” is nasty, thoughtless, and a brainless thing to say. It’s a super spiritual way of avoiding doing what is right.

      • Looks like JD is on his way to his new home. Just wonder how this poor carpet layer can pay $250,000 cash for his new home. Our friends from Coastlands Church I am sure ponder the same thing. JD sold the church from under them and Shazam now he is paying cash for his home.Snake Oil Salesman.” The phrase conjures up images of seedy profiteers trying to exploit an unsuspecting public.
        Yes Rev Bishop you have been sold a big bottle of snake oil.

    • Narcissism is addressed in the Bible in Paul’s second pastoral epistle to Timothy (2 Timothy 3:1-7) in the fall of A.D.67. Paul seems to be concerned about the character and behavior of leaders within the church, so he warns Timothy to beware of those who act out of a “self love attitude”. He says, “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, un thankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away.” Here Paul names many of the attributes associated (in psychology) to-day with the narcissistic personality we are all becoming so familiar with.

    • Paster? Bishop,JD is not a man of god. He is a liar a cheat and a thief. A manipulative narcissitic cheat what an absolute joke.
      Narcissism is addressed in the Bible in Paul’s second pastoral epistle to Timothy (2 Timothy 3:1-7) in the fall of A.D.67. Paul seems to be concerned about the character and behavior of leaders within the church, so he warns Timothy to beware of those who act out of a “self love attitude”. He sold the house or from under his wife and kids.He got her to get citizenship while getting intimate with his newly married besties wife. No way this makes me sick.
      Coast lands has no building to call home now forced to rent. He should hang his head in shame. He dumped a beautiful wife and three gorgeous kids for what someone he’ll get on famously with
      .for a while a fellow cheat ..kathy muldoon.

      You have only heard his lies and seems that you do not care about the truth. So we all know JD is all about himself and Money. So seems you too have the same lack of integrity as Jon Danials. Many of us saw you with your PA while you visited. Have you ever admitted to your wife your own affair?
      As many have commented in this blog Follow the money and the TRUTH will be known!!!

    • Rev Bishop why so many jumping ship? Is it heading toward an iceberg?

    • Just a little word of wisdom from a good source.

      There can exist NO relationship or personal contact between you and the other person involved in the affair. Absolutely none! Extreme action may be necessary to accomplish this. It may even include changing jobs or moving to another state. Once this step is taken, no level of contact should be re-established.WOW JD looks like you did things backwards. you should have ran away from the affair not your wife? Sounds like Rev bishop needs to run away from his pa too. can’t have it both ways or maybe you can?

    • Luke 17:3 – If your brother sins, rebuke him
      Ephesians 5:11 – Do not have fellowship with sin, but reprove it.
      2 Timothy 2:24-26 – The Lord’s servant must correct those who have been taken captive by the Devil.
      2 Timothy 4:2-4 – Preaching the word requires us to “reprove and rebuke”
      Matthew 18:15-17 – “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

    • I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at John Bishop’s response! JD is his ‘best friend’ so he chooses to look past the lies and deception. Can he answer on why he or no one in his family has ever contacted the ‘victim’ in JD’s adultery, not ever! When he was married to his first wife (the victim) they had John Bishop in their home along with his daughter. They were friends with her too and yet his ‘pastoral’ role never extended to her to see how her or her 3 children that JD chose to abandon, were doing. To hear that JD and Kathy were telling people that they had tried to reconcile with their spouses is such a lie. Neither of them ever tried to reconcile but played the victims and told people that their spouses would not take them back. Kathy’s husband begged her to get counseling while her response was coldly, “No, I’m going to be with JD!” JD and Kathy were never apart, even got caught by Kathy’s husband as JD hid his car in the garage of the house that the husband was forced to move out of. Her husband opened up the garage with his remote and voila, JD’s car was parked in there, while hers was parked outside. No deception there!!!
      I’m sure there are good leaders in NCMI but the foundation of NCMI chooses to ignore the victims of their beloved ‘golden child’. They have never once extended help to her or her children, not a single one of his family. The family that called her daughter, the family she laid down her life for! JD chooses to live on a different continent as he chose his new family leaving 3 children to now feel the spirit of rejection.
      Forgiveness is a most beautiful gift, I will never disagree with that. In that forgiveness is given, repentance too plays a part. Sin brings consequences; are we not allowing JD to feel his? His ‘heartache’ as he likes to call it, is by his choice. He could have chosen to live by his children and given up his birthrights in Kathy’s womb as he told many people he was doing. But he did not walk away from her, that spirit was one he chose to align himself with. So in enabling his lies and deception, John Bishop now aligns himself with that spirit too! And to now be restored as a pastor is horrifying. Yes, be in a church, work on yourself but do not be an overseer of sheep, you disqualified yourself in that when you chose adultery and never walked away from it, ever!
      Repentance means a sincere turning away, in both the mind and heart, from self to God. So if you are still living by your flesh you have not turned away!

      • My grand pappy told me Boy I can tell you what kind of man you will become by the friends you hang around. Well JD is your best friend? sure shows your character and integrity .

      • Did JD read this? Paul directs Titus and Timothy, Church leadership should consist of a plurality of servant-leaders. The plurality serves three principle purposes: it diversifies gifting within leadership, it encourages members of the Body to seek opportunities to serve in leadership (i.e., 1Tim 3:1), and it militates against corruption and pride among those who assume authority. Shared responsibility for God’s people minimizes the potential for one man to inflate his pride and abuse his position or those under his charge.

        Secondly, a pastor must engage in regular, transparent communication with other leaders or trusted counselors. These conversations, conducted in an atmosphere of trust and agape love, give opportunity for a pastor to confess his sin to a brother and receive honest feedback concerning his behaviors and decisions.

        To be effective, these meetings cannot be optional or “as needed;” they must be regular opportunities that include an expectation that personal confession will take place in keeping with 1John 1:8.

        Finally, pastors must exercise self-discipline by establishing personal boundaries that protect against even the appearance of impropriety. For example, personal boundaries should include never meeting alone (or riding in a car, etc.) with a woman other than a wife; never obtaining unmonitored access to ministry funds, etc. While these stipulations cannot by themselves prevent sin, they do offer a degree of protection against personal temptation and false accusations.

      • So JD and his bride have been spotted in cabo san lucas mexico. Seems they are staying at Living hope churches pastoral retreat( aka )Rev bishops vacation home.
        If only all the parishioners at living hope could see what the tithe is really being used for.

      • ike Judas reaching into the money bag, the sad reality is that a small minority of Christian pastors steal from God’s people. As Christians we hate to face this truth, but I believe we must, because it is our duty to protect our less aware brothers and sisters – keeping them from these thieves.

        Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. – 2 Corinthians 2:17a

        Here exposed are the secret techniques used to fleece money from God’s people. Don’t be naive thinking that these schemes have spread throughout the world by accident. These techniques are talked about and shared behind closed doors by the clique of pastors who employ them.

        It’s big business. Some of them laugh at us like con-men laughing at their marks. Seriously, if you don’t believe that there are men like that, then watch the 1972 documentary Marjoe. You’ll soon realize that these wolfs in sheep’s clothing have been a blight on Christianity throughout its history.

        I will start by outlining the primary pattern that underpins these modern schemes. Then I will drill down, listing each technique one by one, exposing how they work. Finally, at the end, I will outline the biggest monetary scam of all.

        First let’s discover the primary pattern behind their methods…

        The Multilevel Marketing Pattern

        When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up toJerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!” -John 2:13-16

        We’ve all been approached at some time by a friend caught up in the hope of multilevel marketing. The business they are pushing is simple, sell toothpaste or web sites or whatever, and then recruit people under you doing the same, taking a cut from their sales. Soon you will be so rich that you can buy a flash European car and give stacks of money to Godly causes.

        That is the dream. The proof the dream works is embodied in the wealth of the dream’s leaders. Do you see how rich our leaders are? They made all their money by following the dream, proving that you can too. Except, that it’s a lie.

        Coming up is the key to the pattern, are you ready? These leaders did not become wealthy by following the dream, instead they became wealthy by building up a group of people who believe passionately in the dream, and then selling dream-promoting wares to this captive audience.

        I will say it again, because you need to understand this pattern. They did not become rich by selling toothpaste; they became rich by hyping dream-promoting books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences to their own private market of dream believers.

        This same pattern is practiced by some Christian leaders and their churches. The dream is the prosperity gospel. Their captive market is their congregation. The products are, well you guessed it: books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences, and t-shirts, and most ominously spiritual rewards and the prevention of spiritual punishments.

        These leaders use their faked “success” to promote a distorted gospel which basically says: “tow the line obeying the leaders buying whatever we tell you to buy, and donate money whenever we tell you to donate, and then God will pour riches into your life.” They tell us that they became successful by following this dream, but in reality they became rich by sucking money out of those caught up in the buzzing environment where this distorted gospel seems real.

        Let’s drill in and discuss some of the products and techniques they use to line their pockets with money that ought to have stayed with God’s people or gone to legitimate good works. You are about to discover how these spiritual vampires feed…

        Tip: A clue that you are caught up in one of these churches is if you hear things like, “This is your spiritual home, you can’t go to another church. You must be loyal.” They are very jealous about protecting their market, and do not want to lose one of their paying customers to another church. Some even try to prevent their patrons leaving by making them sign contracts or “covenants”, like a mobile phone company locking you into a two year term. But the Bible does not teach that Christians are bound to their local church organization, this idea is foreign to Scripture.


        The first product is the leader’s book (often ghostwritten and fraudulently claimed to be authored by the leader). Let’s be honest, many of these books are below par. Like bad business books they have one good idea, if that, and then are padded with motivational sayings and anecdotal stories of how the leader obeyed the dream and so God hosed him down with wealth. The theological content is basically non-existent. These books would tank on Amazon or in a real bookstore, but hyped to their captive market they sell like hot cakes.

        Your Counter Strategy: Buy the book if it’s got good reviews or if your friends have read it and liked it. In other words treat it like you would any other book. Avoid buying it if the pastor or speaker has hyped it during his talk and especially if there is a lot of peer pressure from the group to buy. Be aware that conferences and seminars are designed to emotionally hype these products. If you’ve ever been to a high pressure time-share sales session, then you will know what it’s like. If you’re feeling the hype, then cool off for a few days, buying the book later if you still want to.


        Next comes the ever popular DVD. Most of which are videos of the leader preaching in his church on a certain topic. Let me ask you a question, is it ethical for a leader who has been paid by his church to prepare and deliver a sermon, to then take that performance and sell it back to his own church members for a healthy profit? I’m not talking here about paying for reproduction costs or the money going into church funds. I’m talking about DVDs being sold at the same cost as a movie DVD and the profit going into the leader’s own pocket.

        And like the books most of these DVD’s are awful, not worth the money paid. Minimal content with gallons of fluff. Some are so bad that my friends and I have been in hysterics, like the preacher whose proofs for his latest invented doctrine is to slap the bible he’s carrying and say, “It’s bible, it’s bible!”.

        But, these DVDs are hyped and hyped, and the captive audience buy stacks of them. In the worst money hungry churches you’re expected to buy them, and it is noticed if you don’t.

        Your Counter Strategy: The same as for a hyped book. Is it good? Do you still want the DVD after the hype has dissipated? Then buy it, otherwise save your money.

        Hyped Conferences

        The hype for these conferences start months before hand. Other church members look at you strangely if you are thinking about not going. What, you can’t afford the huge entry fee? What’s wrong with you, don’t you love God? Don’t you want to be blessed? Don’t you want to be successful and wealthy? Don’t you want to be part of us? Because you won’t be, unless you go to THE CONFERENCE!

        Each speaker is completely amazing. The next best thing to the second coming.

        He’s built a church up from nothing to one with thousands of people. She’s the most Godly woman in the universe who is the best wife ever with the best kids and the best lifestyle, and she’s the pastor’s wife too. He’s from overseas. She’s a corporate CEO. Wow. It’s going to be awesome. It’s going to be triple awesome! It’s going to be mega massive triply awesomely awesome!

        The spiritual reward for going is implied to be life changing. The conference fee is nothing, compared to the fire-fighting-bomber worth of blessings and wealth God will dump on your head from upon high.

        And Jesus had conferences too, don’t forget, like the Sermon on the Mount, where He charged, oh, he didn’t charge anything for that spiritual teaching. In fact it was free wasn’t it? Hmmm. Well, often the first-movers can’t figure out how to monetize their success, we can’t blame Jesus for that, can we? Gosh, if only He had some books to sell at the back…

        Understand, I’m not against conferences. I’m against overly expensive hyped conferences that deliver hardly any lasting value to their attendees; Conferences that are linked to your standing in your church, and supposedly what God thinks of your commitment to Him.

        And why are they so expensive? Where does all that money go? Well, in the next section you’re going to find out…

        Your Counter Strategy: Hire a hotel room, and sit there reading your Bible with a few Christian friends – trust me, spiritually you’ll get more out of it and it’ll cost less. Realize that you don’t need the sugar high of a conference to get closer to God. De-program yourself from the idea that conferences are like a spiritual hot-point you just have to be at. See the hype for what it is. Be led by the Spirit to conferences, not pulled by the fear of losing your church friends and God’s blessing.

        The Christian Speaking Circuit

        If you have a big market (congregation) and are willing to let others come and sell there, then your fellow pastors will invite you to come and sell into their markets (congregations) too. The bigger your own market, the larger the markets that will open their doors to you – as long as you are willing to reciprocate. Quid pro quo.

        There is a Christian speaking circuit, just like there is a motivational speaking circuit. The circuit has no formal structure like say a football league, but rather is like an exclusive network or an old boys club.

        Young speaking-cubs sweat blood to be allowed into the circuit. These wannabes practice hard and desperately seek in-circuit patrons because the financial rewards are significant. Revenue flows in four ways: from sales of products, from special “love offerings” taken for the speaker, from various perks, and from the formal payments (honorariums) for speaking.

        Not all visiting church speakers are on the circuit, the difference is in the amount of money their visit extracts. There is nothing wrong with a speaker’s flights and accommodation being paid for, along with the speaker receiving a fair payment for his time. But if the amounts are excessive and the perks extravagant, then that is an unacceptable waste of the Lord’s money.

        Some speaker’s egos are so ripe that they demand business or first class flights, expensive chauffeured cars, five star hotel accommodation, gourmet dining, and the right to bring a small entourage along with them (at the church’s expense). Their fees can be enough to buy a family car, and then they have the audacity to expect a special “love offering” to be made for them. The sales of their books and DVD’s are carefully planned, and the hosting pastors are expected to hype their products.

        Of course the hosting pastor will then get the same treatment later at the visiting speaker’s church, including his own big fat love offering. If the visiting speaker does not have a church, then the hosting pastor will expect a cut from the speaker’s product sales.

        These Sunday service speaking engagements are the bread and butter, to the glamour and super-liquidity of the hyped conferences. Only the true speaking-circuit superstars get to keynote at these hype-fests. The speakers at these conferences are like sharks in a feeding frenzy, seeking to boost their profit margins with the over inflated prices of their products. Their speaking fees and perks are why these conferences cost so much, and can sometimes even run at a, ahem, cough, “loss”.

        It is unbelievable what some of these speakers expect from the Body of Christ. I would not like to be in their shoes when they finally meet our Lord, or for that matter anywhere within the blast radius.

        Your Counter Strategy: Don’t go to these conferences. Demand transparent accounting to the whole church of all costs of visiting speakers, and for that matter transparency about any income your pastor is earning while speaking at other churches and conferences. No pastor earning reasonable fees from away engagements would have a problem with this, assuming of course he is on leave when he speaks and not double dipping.

        Pastor Owned Businesses that Feed Off the Flock

        Another way bad pastors extract money from their captive market is to set up a business, and then get their congregation to patronize their business.

        Businesses like: bookshops, counseling, gyms, production firms, computer consulting, cinemas, business coaching services, supermarkets, building firms, music festivals, music studios, real-estate firms, and many more. The bookshop is the most common, often located inside the church itself.

        Members in the church who show loyalty to their pastor’s businesses are rewarded, often with increased standing in the church. Members who refuse to use the pastor’s businesses are frowned upon.

        Your Counter Strategy: Don’t frequent these types of businesses. Ask questions about who owns them, and where their customers are from, if eighty percent or more of the customers come from the pastor’s church then that indicates where its marketing is targeted.

        The Honor The Pastor Scam

        Money focused churches tend to be run on cultic patterns. One of these cultic patterns is the division of the church into exclusive rings: the all-powerful pastor perched at the center, the inner-ring of sycophants around him consisting of the pastor’s lieutenants and the church’s privileged class (the rich, the famous and the very pretty), and the outer-ring of the ordinary folk who would love to be in the inner-ring, but are not.

        The power of those in the inner-ring is determined by the amount of favor the pastor bestows upon them.

        To get more favor the inner-ring will employ many favor-currying measures, one of which is a scam called “Honoring the Pastor”. It works this way, the inner-ring will figure out what the pastor would like, say for his birthday. Then the inner-ringers will squeeze the outer-ringers for the money to buy this item.

        Using this method pastors have been “given”: diamond rings for their wives, cash gifts, jet skis, luxury cruises, motorbikes, cars, holidays, boats, and a myriad of other expensive luxury items.

        Are the pastors complicit in this game? Of course they are. They couldn’t demand the gift openly themselves, but seek plausible deniability by having their inner-ring lieutenants do the work. Of course they could refuse the gift when it is presented, and make it clear that they don’t want the Lord’s money spent on such things again, but they never do. These pastors exchange their favor, for cash from their congregation.

        Your Counter Strategy: Unless it’s something reasonable like a bunch of flowers for the pastor’s wife, don’t give to this sort of fund raising.

        High Pressure Offerings

        Another way the pastor uses his inner-ring to extract cash, is via high pressure offering talks in the church services.

        One of the church’s inner-ring will take the Sunday offering, which in these money focused churches can turn into a mini-sermon. These inner-ring members are competing against each other’s past high scores. At stake is their standing with the pastor and hence their standing in the church. If they rake in the cash then their position is secure, but if they score low then no matter what excuses they have they know the pastor will blame them.

        In the extreme money focused churches it is made known who gave the most and who gave the least, and in these churches the giving will not be in secret but people will be expected to come up the front so that everyone can see how much they give. Or people will be watched to see if they put anything in the offering container as it is passed down the aisles.

        Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7

        Your Counter Strategy: If you feel you are being compelled to give then don’t give a penny, no matter how much pressure is applied.

        Cathedral Building Wars

        Like the cathedral building wars in the middle ages where cities and countries vied against each other to build the most impressive cathedral. The pastors of these money focused churches fight to own the most impressive church to top their rival pastors – their egos demand that they are the king of the heap.

        The most impressive churches require the most magnificent buildings, the most professional entertainment in their services, the best church programs, and the best conferences, the best websites, the best radio and TV programs, and the most members. All this costs a lot of money.

        And just like in the days of old these self anointed church kings seek to tax their subjects to fund their private war.

        Understand that these cultic churches ultimately exist to serve their pastor’s insecure egos, and their congregation suffer under their madness. This type of church culture breeds a harsh environment where people are discarded as soon as they are no longer useful. This is a dysfunctional ethos entirely alien to that of Jesus’s teachings.

        Your Counter Strategy: Don’t help fund these monuments to the pastor’s pride and prestige, these pet projects, these grandiose visions. Realize that these churches are not focused on Jesus, but are centered around the narcissistic pastor and what he desires most. Don’t be part of this game. Surely we are accountable to God to how we spend our money. Surely then it is our duty as Christians to give that money to true Godly works that bear real fruit for the Kingdom.

        Siphoning Cash into Property

        Is it ethical for the pastor (or his company or trust) to own property that the church is paying for? Of course not.

        Another variation on this scam is the church trust being controlled by the pastor and his family, so they control both the church’s cash and property.

        Some of these pastors are very clever in how they hide the money trail. But ultimately if church money is paying for an asset the pastor owns, except via his wages of course, then it is almost certainly wrong. Imagine the furor if a politician was caught siphoning off government money into property or assets owned by himself.

        Your Counter Strategy: Check who owns your church’s property. If it is a trust or company then find out who owns and controls that entity. Then look at what your pastor owns directly or indirectly, and who is paying for those assets. Stop giving to that church until any unethical dealings like these are stopped and the money repaid.

        Excessive Wages

        The Bible teaches that the spiritual worker deserves to be paid:

        The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” – 1 Timothy 5:17-18

        I believe it is reasonable to assume that Paul the Apostle meant only fair wages, not excessive wages, and that Paul would have agreed with what Peter the Apostle wrote:

        To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. – 1 Peter 5:1-3

        Obviously one of the ways greedy pastors can extract money from God’s people is via excessive wages. The amount of which they will often decide themselves, or have conferred on them by their sycophants (via the church board, or the church wages review committee, for example).

        No honest pastor would have a problem with his congregation knowing how much their church pays him, or at least what range his wage fell in, like say “between $50,000 and $60,000″. This is normal. Openness regarding the pastor’s stipend has been a practice of the Christian church for hundreds of years, and continues today. Only those pastors who have an excessive wage would be reluctant to let the amount become public knowledge.

        If your pastor refuses to be open about his wage then be very suspicious. It is likely he knows that the amount would be considered excessive. If it is excessive, then watch him dodge the issue like a sweaty politician.

        Be even more suspicious whenever you hear a pastor’s wage being justified by comparing him to a CEO. If you hear this CEO nonsense then you can instantly know two things: first, the pastor’s wage is massive; second, you are being scammed. A pastor is not a CEO no matter how big his church empire is; a CEO runs a for monetary-profit organization, a pastors serves the people of God – they are not the same thing.

        By the way, if the pastor claims to be a CEO, then you must be a shareholder. Shareholders have full rights to the accounts, including how much their “CEO” is earning.

        Your Counter Strategy: Find out how much your pastor is paid. If he will not reveal the information then stop giving to that church until it is revealed. Especially stop if you hear any of this “CEO” rubbish.


        Expensive leased cars, holidays, clothing allowances, spending money, restaurant meals, hotels, flights, and expense accounts, are some of the perks demanded by these luxury smitten pastors.

        Some say that if they are preaching the “prosperity gospel”, then they have to appear prosperous to “walk their talk”. But of course that is a deception. They are using God’s money to misrepresent how wealthy they are, to help prove their false teaching works. Despicable.

        Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. – 2 Corinthians 4:2

        What is worse, many of these churches make their members complicit in this deception. Members are instructed to wear expensive clothes and groom themselves in the manner expected of the rich. They are encouraged to buy (or lease) the most impressive car they can afford. Members are required to appear happy and successful. The excuse given is that the appearance of success breeds success, but this is nonsense, more likely it breeds significant debt. The real reason the leaders want their church members to appear successful is to trick others into thinking that the prosperity dream that they preach really works.

        Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving money in protest, until the excessive perks are removed. Ignore any pressure to live beyond your means.

        But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. – 1 Timothy 6:3-10


        A church isn’t a family business you know; it is a family, but it’s not a business.

        Are the pastor’s relatives high up in the church? Are they the ones with the most powerful positions? Then that is nepotism. A good church will choose the very best people for the job, while a bad church will reward those closest to the pastor with the lucrative positions of power.

        If you see nepotism, then that is a sign that something is very wrong.

        Your Counter Strategy: Yup, you guessed it – stop giving to that church until the pastor’s little family fiefdom is disassembled.

        Their Fabricated Tithing Doctrine

        This is the big daddy. This is their sacred cow. This is the beating heart of their evil empire. The crown jewel. The Death Star. The one ring to bill them all. The pot of gold. Their matrix (into which they want to plug you). Their Wizard of Oz. Their magic spell. Their special power. Their secret recipe with the eleven herbs and spices. Their Golden Goose. The very air upon which they breathe!

        Question this doctrine and watch these money hungry pastors bare their fangs. This is a teaching that they will bear no compromise on. Tithing, or at least their own version of tithing, is their one true love.

        Here are some bullet points about tithing that these money hungry pastors don’t want you to know:

        The New Testament Church did not tithe.
        The New Testament does not teach tithing for Christians.
        Their favorite Malachi verses cannot be used for Christians since Christians are not under the law of Moses.
        Abraham’s one off tithe of his war booty did not set up a precedent for Christians to regularly tithe their income.
        The version of tithing they teach cannot be found in Scripture (see below).
        The “Storehouse” in Malachi cannot be equated to your local church organization.
        There are plenty of rich (money wise) Christians who do not tithe. This would be impossible if their version of tithing was true.
        The New Testament teaching is that you decide how much to give, and there are no rules about where it goes. You cannot be compelled to give.
        It may come as a surprise to learn that their tithing doctrine is a combination of twisted scriptures and wishful thinking, as opposed to solid Biblical exegesis reflecting a central thrust of New Testament teaching. Here is their tithing doctrine stated in a nutshell:

        “Christians must give ten percent of their gross income only to their church organization. If they do, then God will bless them for any offerings they make to the church organization beyond this ten percent. But if they do not give ten percent gross, then they are stealing from God and God will curse them.”

        There are variations of this teaching, and sometimes it is called a “principle”, but the above definition contains the core essence of this doctrine.

        It is vital to grasp that tithing is not for Christians. Tithing was part of the old law (of Moses) which was fulfilled (completed) by Jesus. You know that Christians are not under the law of Moses don’t you?

        But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. – Romans 7:6

        know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. – Galatians 2:16

        All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” – Galatians 3:10

        New wine should not be put into old wine skins, nor should new unshrunk cloth be used to patch an old garment; if you think you need to obey the law of tithing then you need to obey the whole law (or you will be cursed, Galatians 3:10).

        What is more, this tithing doctrine they teach isn’t found in either the New or Old Testament. Tithing in the old testament does not match what these pastors preach – this unique tithe teaching is of their own invention.

        This is such an important subject that Cultwatch has a special website TithingDebate.com dedicated to setting Christians free from this fake doctrine. There are free books to download and articles to read. Make sure you read our article “Should you give? New Testament Giving Supported!”, because Cultwatch is not anti-giving. If you think tithing is for Christians today, then you need to read TithingDebate.com

        Tip: If you are struggling to feed your family or buy them clothes, then understand that you do not need to give to the church. You can still do so if you choose, but you should not feel under compulsion since your family is more important. Also understand that if you are poor then that does not mean God is cursing you, or that you have done something wrong; this is an erroneous teaching these greedy men promote to guilt you into giving. Remember, your duty is to your family first. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. – 1 Timothy 5:8

        Tip: Churches that push this erroneous tithing doctrine will often try to enforce tithing via written agreements (called covenants), and also by monitoring what people give (so they can compel them to give more if they are not meeting the ten percent target). First, grasp that these “covenants” are illegitimate and not worth the paper they are printed on, because they contain false doctrine (like tithing) and set up the pastors as a false authority over you. God would not be party to a covenant that contains falsehoods, therefore God was not party to the covenant you were pressured to sign, therefore you are free from this burden. It is as if you never signed it. Second, recording what you give and using that information to pressure you to give more is wrong, the Bible implies that our giving is best done in secret so that only we and God know what we gave. Don’t go to a church where they monitor what you give. (note: some churches voluntarily let you record what you have given via a numbered envelope system for tax purposes. Done correctly, no one in the church will know what you gave. There is nothing wrong with this kind of recording.)

        Your Counter Strategy: Stop giving to that church until they change their ways. That doesn’t mean to stop giving to Godly works, we would encourage you to give as the Holy Spirit prompts you and as you decide. But it is valid to protest false doctrine by refusing to fund the system that promotes that false doctrine.

        The Carrot and the Stick

        These pastors are not only money hungry, but often power hungry too. They want to be both pastor and master. They commit the sin of the Pharisees and appoint themselves as middle men between God and you. They seek to replace the Holy Spirit in your life. They “lord it over” their flocks. Read Cultwatch’s articles on the “Super Apostles” here if you want to find out more.

        Using the connection they claim to have with God they threaten you with the stick of spiritual curses if you disobey them, and dangle the carrot of spiritual blessings if you comply. They seek to dominate your life; often implying that they have say in where you work, where you fellowship, who you marry, and of course, when, where, and how much you should give.

        This is a false spiritual authority not supported by Scripture. In fact I believe it to be quite devilish (the desire to control and dominate others).

        In these pastor’s prosperity teaching, obeying the pastor and giving money are the two pillars necessary for a successful Christian life. If you sit back and think about it, you will quickly see what a con it is.

        These men want to be at the head of everything, they want to dominate you, they want to be seen as the big man, and some even secretly desire adoration (almost worship). This is the opposite of true Christian leadership:

        Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. – Luke 22:24-27

        I call God as my witness that it was in order to spare you that I did not return toCorinth. Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm. – 2 Corinthians 1:23-24

        Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. – Mark 10:42-44

        Threatening people with curses if they do not obey or donate is spiritual extortion. It is contrary to the nature of grace and the person of Jesus.

        Your Counter Strategy: Don’t be afraid of these men. Ignore their bluster. Grow a backbone and stand up to them. And if you give, then give to honor God and not out of fear of punishment or greed for financial gain. Memorize this verse: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. – 2 Corinthians 9:7


        I believe many church goers would be shocked if they could comprehend the real attitude their pastor has towards them. From my experience with both the cults and these money focused churches, it is my impression that instead of being looked upon with love, these pastors see their congregation as farm animals to be milked.

        It is my prayer that this article will set you free from this kind of spiritual bondage. I hope now you will be able to spot this counterfeit Christian life and be able to transition into a closer walk with Jesus; a walk built on love, trust and grace, not fear.

        To summarize what we have learnt about the methods money hungry pastors use to feed off their flock: We discovered the multilevel marketing pattern that these often ex-salesmen (not theologians) model their churches. We examined some of the products they sell into their captive market like books and DVDs. We unhyped the hyped conferences, and exposed the christian speaking circuit. Next we talked about how spiritually dishonest pastors set up their own businesses that their followers are expected to patronize. After that came the scam of “honoring the pastor” with gifts of luxury items. We delved into the high pressure offering mini-sermons that are designed to guilt people into giving. We examined how most of the money gained is used to build the pastor’s modern day cathedrals, projects that their fragile egos demand. We exposed the scam of siphoning the church’s cash into properties and assets owned by the pastor. We covered the obvious points of excessive wages and extravagant perks, and that was followed by the not so obvious problem of nepotism. Their big daddy came second to last – their fabricated tithing doctrine was exposed for what it is, a fraud. Finally we discussed the spiritual carrot and stick of the false authority that the pastors claim.

        There are other methods these guys use to extract money from churches. Revisit this article regularly to discover these methods in future updates.

        Realize that a number of churches follow the patterns that this article exposes. However there are many good churches who do not practice these methods. If you have been hurt by these practices then feel free to give up on these twisted money-focused environments, but please do not give up on Jesus.

        Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. – 2 Corinthians 2:17. Therefore, can we conclude that men who peddle the word of God for profit are not sent from God?

        Feel free to think this one through for yourself.

      • Hey Rev Bishop you proved it!!!
        Already to buddy up with JD’s brother.
        Maybe he can speak at your church and then you and his brother JD can speak at his. Funny how that works. LOVE offerings for all and all a good night.

        Tyrone Daniel ‏@tyroneLdaniel 23h
        A great time away strategizing for a key next season with @RedemptionCity elders & deacons!Celebrating 4 yrs as a plant tomorrow! Stoked!
        Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
        John Bishop ‏@John_Bishop 23h
        @tyroneLdaniel @RedemptionCity Awesome Tyrone. You are a great leader and inspiration to so many around the world. Cheers bro!!!!!
        Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
        Tyrone Daniel ‏@tyroneLdaniel 23h
        @John_Bishop thanks bro!Looking forward to connecting soon ?!?Lets set it up?
        Hide conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More
        2:58 PM – 12 Apr 2014 · Details

      • All I can say is “lol”

        I have a bit of a crisis with this whole matter regarding JD. Most of my issues seem to be by who is posting comments regarding this. I can see peoples emails as Admin for this blog and all the people (90%) are from the same place (which I will not name).
        It is an issue of credibility of the source. I want to write a blog post about this, and about the rapid decline of NCMI ~ However, I need to make sure that JD did in fact have an affair.
        With that said, the tweets you just posted stink of a scandal.

        Screenshot of tweet for future reference: http://i.imgur.com/sDFf7nY.png

      • I can assure you the affair took place – I was in the meeting when ReAnn and the elders addressed Coastlands. It is still to this day one of the most surreal moments I have experienced.

    • I am glad that you posted this material, so don’t get me wrong. But I never cared for anything the guy had to say before his “fall from grace” and while I am very grateful that he has learned the error of his way (I’ll take his word for that), he is completely unqualified by his life and actions to be a teacher, prophet, leader etc. in any church.
      He would be welcome in our church. But we would probably ask him to serve quietly in some ministry that did not involve public teaching, speaking or writing.
      And we would NEVER allow this guy into our pulpit.
      It’s not that he is not forgiven by God. We would assume, based on his testimony, that he is. And he is welcome in the fellowship. None of us is any better than he.
      But he has forfeited the right to lead. He does not have “a good reputation among them that are without” (people outside the church). So he has to serve somewhere else.
      And, assuming he is truly repentent, he would humbly accept his new role and be grateful.
      But if he starts with any language such as, “Well, David did not lose his kingdom after he sinned…”, then repentence may not have had its full work in his life.
      I hear lots of guys who fall while in the ministry reference David and make a similar quote.
      I always respond – “Well, you are not David. I didn’t see Samuel, God’s ordained prophet annoint you.”
      Anyone who would use that concept and compare themselves to David – or Abraham, Moses, Isael, the prophets etc. must really think highly of themselves.
      And that’s the problem. It’s not just the sin that brought them down, it’s the attitude – which is the hardest thing to change.

  51. Hi all
    My name is Trevor Butler (Just putting it out there:)
    I’ve been following this blog for the last five years.
    My wife and I have been involved with NCMI since, virtually, the beginning.
    We have never been on an eldership team, only having the occasional privilege to lead a home group and, for one brief period, lead worship – The reason being, I believe, that I am an unrepentant smoker and natural born cynic , but that’s another story…..
    Here is our church history:-
    Invisible Church (Durban) that became..
    Glenridge under Chris Wienand.
    New Covenant Fellowship (Woodlands, Durban) under John Drever.
    Coastlands Church (Port Edward, South Africa) – D.J.Reed
    NCF (Pietermaritzburg) – Ray Oliver and then Grant Crawford
    Taichung Christian Church (Taiwan) – Dian Botha
    Kingsway Church (Amanzimtoti, South Africa) – Bruce Lancaster
    Thameside Church (Reading, UK) – Sean Dooley
    We were part of the team that planted Kingsway Church but not leaders.
    We still have good relationships with elders and plebs from all these churches.
    Our experience of NCMI – Good! Not without dispute but, generally, any conflict did not develop with eldership but with puffed up legalists who thought they were important and claimed to speak for the eldership when they didn’t.
    The thing about NCMI is that, coming out of South Africa, its not all ‘soft and cuddly’ make you feel comfortable, first world churchianity but about bringing the gospel to the nations as a matter of urgency.
    Our current church (Thameside) has pulled away from NCMI and associated itself with a UK movement (Covenant Kingdom Network) which my wife and I find rather bland compared to NCMI – No we are not thrill seekers but passionate about spreading the good news.
    So just to really irritate all of you out there – We miss NCMI but all is not lost as we are moving to Hong Kong later this year and joining Rob Rufus’ church:)

  52. I think the fact that the child he has with his mistress who will two next month is pretty much ‘evidence’ that he had an affair and continued to this whole time!

  53. Yes it is true he has a child conceived while he was married. read his own tweets.So many talk about truth but hide behind lie’s.
    Yes its true the tweets posted stink of a scandal.
    Thank you for keeping this an anonymous blog. These people scare me.

  54. Pastors who are walking in their God-given authority are gifts from Jesus to encourage spiritual development. They can be wonderful spiritual parents. But how do we determine if they are healthy before we submit ourselves to them?
    Here are seven characteristics based on 1 Peter 5:1-4 to look for:
    1. A healthy pastor fulfills all the responsibilities of a good shepherd–feeding, guiding, guarding and protecting the flock.
    2. A healthy pastor acts as an overseer, providing mature spiritual oversight within the local church. He helps to create a spiritual climate that will encourage the people in their relationships with God.
    3. A healthy pastor shepherds the people willingly, not out of compulsion.
    4. A healthy pastor has no desire for dishonest gain. He is not driven by a love of money and does not see people as simply a financial resource.
    5. A healthy pastor refrains from using his position of spiritual authority to exercise dominion over the people in his congregation. His attitude toward them is one of servanthood–not dominance.
    6. A healthy pastor knows that the people belong to God and that he is merely a steward, chosen by God to love, lead and represent Him.
    7. A healthy pastor is an example of Christlikeness to the congregation. He lives a transparent life devoid of secrets and hidden agendas. Just sayin!!!

  55. Timothy 3:1-7

    The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?

    Acts 20:28 ESV / 76 helpful votes

    Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.


    Not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

    1 Peter 5:2

    Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

    1 Timothy 3:8-13

    Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

    Titus 1:7 ESV / 33 helpful votes

    For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

    Hebrews 13:7

    Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

    1 Timothy 3:2

    Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

    1 Thessalonians 5:12-13

    We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

    2 Timothy 2:2

    And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

    Acts 14:23

    And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

    1 Timothy 5:17

    Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

    Acts 6:1-15

    Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.

    Matthew 20:25-27

    But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,

    Matthew 28:18-20

    And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    2 Timothy 3:16

    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

    James 5:14

    Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

    Titus 1:1-16

    Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior; To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—

    1 Timothy 3:3

    Not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

    1 Timothy 3:1 ESV / 12 helpful votes

    The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

    1 Peter 5:1

    So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:

    Titus 1:5

    This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—

    Ephesians 5:25

    Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

    Philippians 1:1

    Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

    1 Corinthians 7:32-34

    I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.

    Acts 15:22

    Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,

    Acts 15:2

    And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

    James 1:3

    For you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

    Colossians 4:1

    Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

    1 Corinthians 7:7-8

    I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

    Acts 6:5

    And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.

    John 3:8-12

    The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

    1 Peter 2:25

    For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

    Ephesians 5:23

    For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

    1 Corinthians 3:1-23

    But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.

    Acts 20:17 s

    Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him.

    John 20:19-23

    On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

    Ephesians 5:28

    In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

    Acts 15:6

    The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.

    Acts 15:4

    When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.

    Acts 11:30

    And they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

    Luke 5:5-9

    And Simon answered, “Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets.” And when they had done this, they enclosed a large number of fish, and their nets were breaking. They signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.” For he and all who were with him were astonished at the catch of fish that they had taken,

    Luke 1:33

    And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

    Matthew 16:15-19

    He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    James 3:1

    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

    1 Corinthians 11:26

    For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

    John 5:3

    In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.

    John 3:5

    Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 12:1-31

    Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

    Acts 17:11

    Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    Acts 16:4

    As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions that had been reached by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 29 other followers

%d bloggers like this: