Before you comment

There are posts that are going to be added to this blog that not everyone is going to agree with. Likewise there are going to be comments added to each post that I am not going to agree with. This page aims to deal with these comments that are bound to come up that will have no effect on what I believe. I like to answer every comment on this blog, but I will not answer the same question or comments over and over. So when one of these comments is made I will add it to this page and give my answer once and if it is posted again on any of the posts I will delete it. I think this is a fare measure and will allow me to give as much time as possible to answering questions that are posted via the comment system.

NCMI is not to blame for abuses / aberrant practices of relating church because they only relate autonomously.

NCMI is an apostolic organisation. On their website they put forward a set of beliefs. They also detail what the function of the “team” is:

  • They strengthen the churches and help to equip the priesthood for works of service.
  • They counsel and help church leadership work through questions related to doctrine, discipline and direction.
  • They are involved in the appointing of elders in the relating churches.
  • They help the relating churches with financial matters. For example, when it comes to the setting of elder’s salaries, we advise all the relating churches to ask a team member to come in and look at the church income and expenditure, and then advise on salaries.
  • They co-ordinate the training that NCMI does in the different geographical regions.

Wow, look they help the leadership work through questions related to doctrine. Ok this obviously means that they sit down with the eldership and try come to a common understanding about the word of God (or doctrine), or does it? Let’s say that when a church makes the decision to relate to NCMI and they have their little counselling session regarding doctrine and the relating church decides that it can not come to agreement with the Apostolic team, then what? Does NCMI still allow the church to relate or better yet, what if there is a church that has been relating for 15 years and they suddenly decide to embrace a Word of Faith type theology, then what? Will that church be expelled from the relationship that they have with NCMI?
Let’s say for instance that NCMI will not allow the group to be unevenly yoked, and decide not to relate with the church or expel the church that decided to change, how’s this different to any other group out there? NCMI can make these decisions, after all relationships are a two way affair are they not.
Lets say that NCMI decide to ignore the doctrinal difference that they have and still allow the church to relate even if they have a different belief. What is stopping NCMI then from relating with non-Trinitarian groups like the Oneness Pentecostals or other groups like the word of faith movement? Perhaps they can enter into a relationship with the Watchtower bible and Tract Society? This is not a set up that works.
Now with the above in mind; let’s say that a church is abusing its members. They can be doing this spiritually, mentally, or financially. What will NCMI do about it? Is it not NCMI that is offering this church a covering?
I hold to the belief that NCMI is to blame for abuses and aberrant doctrine that happen in relating churches. If NCMI is fast in dealing with these problems then I will say that say are performing their jobs well, like Paul did when addressing problems in Corinth. He addressed the problems in great detail. But is unfortunately my experience that NCMI do not address these problems. They are guilty by their inaction.

64 Responses

  1. My teenage son has become involved with an NCMI church in the UK. I have been along a few times with him and have listened with interest to the sermons/training sessions. On several occasions I have attempted to discuss the content with the elder concerned after the meeting. On each occasion, I have been given a response that was less than encouraging. I have been puzzled by this apparent lack of interest in the contributions of a potential new church member. I have been trying to work out what was going on but having read your material, it all becomes clear. I was committing the cardinal sin of going straight to the top! No wonder they backed off.

    My son is very keen on this church and he has some really good friends within it. They take him seriously and value him. I want to support him but now I have read some of your material, I am seriously worried. Do you have any wisdom on this?

  2. Hi,

    I am glad this site could be of some help. Remember I usually present extreme cases here, but that could very well be what that church is.
    It is hard to know what to do in a case like this. Perhaps getting him out now is just what needs to happen. It would depend a lot on if he is an older or younger teen.
    Educating your children about Spiritual abuse and letting him continue could be another option. No one has ever, or will ever pull a Jonestown mass suicide in an NCMI church but people can get hurt. If he has friends that go to the church it is important for him not to cut off those ties. This site has never been anti the member, but anti the system. Having friends that go to an NCMI church is better than having friends that do drugs, and beside the people that attend these churches are good Christians but are under a suppressive church system.
    So in summery, let him stay and get burnt, enabling him with enough knowledge to handle the hurt or
    Pull him out but allow him to remain friends with the people in the church.

    Sorry, but it is a hard question

  3. Very tough position to be in. I’d like to ask which church but that would be naughty. Ha!Ha!

    Anyhow my suggestion is that you expose him as much as you can to the grace of God and good solid grace teaching. He will need to learn that he gets blessed not on his own performance (like whether he attended home group and the pre service prayer meeting) but on the victory of the cross. I’d like to suggest you expose him the Rob Rufus (sorry – I could not resist). If you go to http://www.citychurchinternational.com, and 2006 message archives you’ll see a series called ‘Grace for Freedom and Fruitfulness’.

    If you can do nothing else – show him unconditional love and acceptance. Not every NCMI church is always the same and he might have picked a good one or one coming out of the control stuff. If its a bad one, he needs to know love without conditions.

  4. Hi, this is “lozza” from the discussion forums. Nice looking blog.

  5. My wife and I attended an NCMI church in Australia. It was the closest thing to a cult I have ever attended. There was strong pressure to keep yourself busy within the confines of the church group. Holiness was inferred to be related to attending all prayer meetings, all extra curricular activities – next to no mingling with people outside of the denomination and a sense that you gained higher levels of knowledge by attending the various conferences or reading the writings of Rufus.

    I was glad to get out of it, and wouldn’t go back for all the tea in china.

  6. Hi everyone,
    I have read this blog and it pains me to know that you have had bad experiences with NCMI churches. I have attended numerous NCMI church in various parts of the world and they are not all the same, just like not every Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc, church is the same. Some are more conservative than others, and some are very liberal in their expression of worship. All I can suggest is that you study God’s word before making judgement. On the subject of speaking in tongues being occultic….well, then I guess the Bible is occultic too because the book of Acts is very clear on the fact of speaking in tongues, and all penicostal / penticostal – based churches are occultic too (just food for thought). I attend an NCMI church which is pastored by one of the influencial figures in the organization, and it is made very clear to us every Sunday, that the day messages are preached without scriptural, Bible basis or backing, we need to “take it up” with the leadership as our faith has no basis outside that of the Word of God. If you cannot approach your leadership, I would encourage you to approach another NCMI church or the NCMI organization themselves.
    I trust that you will find Truth, and that your Truth will be in Jesus Christ.

    • Hi chickforgod,
      If the leadership model (being effectively an autonomous church with no real oversight and control systems such as you get from organised denominiations such as presbyterian, baptist etc) effectively puts all the power in one man’s hands, how do you question it?
      I have got zero problems with tongues etc. I have a lot of problem with the level of control and subtle manipulation that goes on.

      The whole model of having apostles is questionable. The first apostles set very tight criteria as to who qualified, and it wasn’t something that would transfer beyond the first generation of christians. If it is effectively an oversight board just using some flash names, then it would be more honest to do so.

      I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on my previous post.
      All the best.

      • Hi Andrew,
        Your questions and concerns are honorable and require more than just a flippant, 2 min. answer. I would like to make sure that all my bases are covered, so, let me gather my thoughts and I will get back to you soon.
        The control issues you mentioned…..I am definately not familiar with….so sorry for your experience though.
        If you would like to discuss this outside of this forum, let me know and maybe we can e-mail intead.
        Are you currently in Australia?
        Regards,
        C.F.G.

    • I would echo a lot of what Andrew has said. On the issues of tongues, I believe the following:

      - Firstly ceased at the completion of the scriptural canon
      - Were not ecstatic babble as practiced today
      - Were a sign to the Jews during the first part of the Apostles ministry.

      But I try hard to not preach that here (This blog is not about that). If people are practicing tongues, then it should follow the scriptural guidelines, which most Charismatic/Pent churches do not do – NCMI included.

      • Concerned – you’d have my email address from my comments. Can you please forward it to chick for God? I’d rather not put it up on the page for any random person to see. Thanks :)

        I got my thoughts on apostolic succession from a talk I heard Wayne Grudem give on the subject (coming out of his systematic theology text). Not original in the least.

      • Ok, done.

  7. A question, i left a UK church that was part of NCMI.

    I wonder is ther loop holes in the charity commission in the UK specifically regarding salaries. I find it strange that and Elder and his partner can both be on the payroll of the church, in the case of the church i left two Elders and there wives are on the payroll.
    I belive the cap is £50.000 and i am more than happy to be corrected, therefore having both Husband and Wive on the Eldership paid salary could hence increase the salary.

    How many Men would like to have there wives stay at home and write there sermons for them and get paid to do it?

    The regulations are open for abuse.

    Like your previous post on Tyrone Daniels and the extravagant lifestyle i witnessed first hand the eveidence of this lifestyle in the church i left.

    I asked for a building project refund and i was glad to retrive it, the committment from the congregation was phenomenal and with great sacrifice. A warehouse converted into an attractive meeting place. Sadily lots of those amazing people who sacrificed so much have been left hurt and abandoned by a ruthless Leader whose primary focus is wealth generation.

    I stumbled on the charity commission accounts and was baffled with the figures and for someone who was passionate about the gospel and evangelism. The paltry sums been given to the poor or to spreading the gospel drove it home to me that i had been duped by a religious salesman that opereates a business.

    Like the previous post questions i raised were met with scorn and rebuffed strongily.

    I would hope that perhaps someone in a legal position would examine the charity commission rules on charity and trustee salaries and examine the loophole by adding your partner on the salary.

    Does David Camerons wife get a salary while he is in office as Prime Minister?

    Does your wife get a salary from the company you work for and she can stay at home managing the household?

    Well in short i call that an abuse of the system and abuse of the trust that is given to Elders by the congregation.

  8. seems like a lot of bitter twisted people on this site. most of you seem to at least have the hint of christianity to you so I suggest YOU practice what YOUR saviour commanded – Forgive / Move on with your life / find something more meaningful to do with your life than this!

    Just trying to help … Holding unforgiveness in your heart is like drinking poison and waiting fort he other person to die

    I was recently switched on to this blog by the author via Twitter …

    • Yeah buddie, but it also tells us that we should stand up for what is just, defend our faith and rebuke those that twist the faith. Have I forgiven them? Yes I have, when I first decided to start asking the Apostolic teams their opinions before I post an article was the time that happened fully. They however refuse to answer me, so, I carry on. To be a Christian and sit by while a church does wrong is counter biblical – so I can do nothing else by carry on.

      • Thanks … just saying it seems like your efforts would be more fruitful by going out and actually doing something is to SHOW the original … not running around telling everyone about the counterfeit!
        I had never heard of NCMI until I picked up your comments on Twitter … but since then i have checked them out and they seem to be doing a lot of good stuff around the world … I would however want to know what your organization is building? How are you helping to spread the Gospel? How are you helping churches get planted and established? What are you doing about poverty?

      • Well, the Lord has called us to help orphaned, abandoned and abused children. We currently look after 10 infants in our home. Most are under 1 years old. We help the poor every single day – reaching out into the shanties that riddle South Africa. We help moms, we help churches and we run a dynamic Prolife campaign in order to help the unborn. Like the bible has commanded us, we have given up our jobs and the normal joys of life to do this. The only joy we seek is that which the Lord has given us.

        But…..

        Every step of the way we run into NCMI members and leaders that think we do not do what is right. We are told by a man who claims to be a Social worker that a 16 year old girl who is pregnant is a slut, and should suffer for what she did. Her abusive foster mom, who refused her medical treatment when she was bleeding out during a miscarriage (yes the foster mom is NCMI too) was pardoned by this so called social worker as only making a mistake.

        We, through this blog deal with woman who are sexually assaulted by NCMI members and leaders, men who have had their wives removed by the church and people who are dis-communicated and harassed by NCMI relating churches.

        We do our share for the Lord, but there is more that we can do and should be doing. Being a Christian is not about going half way, it’s about going all the way. Leave everything and follow HIM!

    • Also, thought you might be interested in this
      http://www.thefamily.org/en/
      On the surface that church looks good, but underneath it all when you scratch the surface a bit you will see that they are a church of Sexual liberation. Missionaries are encouraged to sleep with the people that they mission to – the founder was a pervert whose sun committed suicide via youtube (he was dubbed the messiah) , and they encouraged parents to have sex in front of their children.
      but, at first glance it looks good. Kind of puts it all in perspective

      • but then how do you know all this about the family international Forced to hide?

      • Forced to Hide no longer runs this blog and I know he will not be answering any questions. What he said is true as far as I am aware. They had a evangelizing strategy called flirty fishing. It encouraged sexually suggestive mission work in order to win converts. The reason the church exists in the first place is because of the founders disagreements with mainstream church doctrine on sexuality. It is all there on Google should you wish to research it.

      • You will notice that the basis of a Godly sexual relationship in their belief statement here: http://www.thefamilyinternational.org/en/about/our-beliefs/sexuality/ lacks any mention of marriage but rather that of consent.

      • I joined the church back in Bryanston when New Covenant Fellowship started in South Africa when it was led by Dudley Daniel and the fruit of the Spirit was evident in leadership. It sounds like there is a problem with quoting the wrong church.
        To speak untruths is “bearing false witness against your neighbour”

      • It is wonderful that you had a great experience there. It is also wonderful that Forced to Hide has said on numerous occasions that not every NCMI church is bad. All you have to do is go read it.

        Now that he has said this and this gels 100% with the statement you made, you accusation seems to be a “untruth” and technically you are “bearing false witness against your neighbour”

        I’m not picking on you :) but where do you draw the line. You had no idea about the extent of the various comments on this site and what it actually has in them, you also have no idea who Forced to Hide is and what he experienced through the NCMI movement. You say “untruths” and he has already admitted a different experience from church to church for different people.

        What happens in life is that when something does not gel will your world view, people tend to get defensive and accuse. Remember to take your NCMI worldview off, and put your feet on the message of Love that the Scriptures present.

        Thanks for your false criticism Glynnis Stirton, but from reading through all the comments by Forced to Hide I can see that you nulled your argument by also in fact bearing false witness.

        God Bless

  9. Also, thought you might be interested in this

    http://www.thefamily.org/en/

    On the surface that church looks good, but underneath it all when you scratch the surface a bit you will see that they are a church of Sexual liberation. Missionaries are encouraged to sleep with the people that they mission to – the founder was a pervert whose sun committed suicide via youtube (he was dubbed the messiah) , and they encouraged parents to have sex in front of their children.

    but, at first glance it looks good. Kind of puts it all in perspective

    • I have been checking this out a little more … Your whole thing with NCMI seems to be built on a lot of here-say and opinion .. I assume you have some actual evidence to back what you are saying? And if you are simply going to build your life and ministry on going after people who are wrong … how come so many have escaped your attention? How about the Muslims/Hindus/JW’s what is your issue with them?

      Seems to me you should be a bit more even handed … your one sided attack on NCMI just comes off as bitter and twisted

  10. Freedom Fighter, no one is bitter and twisted.

    Patrick, having the wives (even kids) on the payroll is to avoid paying tax. It’s legal, it’ just that it is a lie and dishonest.

    I have never seen a group of churches so poor, and on such a mission to avoid paying tax, and begging for volunteers and more tithes and offerings.

    After I left I really noticed the difference when I visited other churches.

    Typical NCMI church
    Has more elders/staff on staff than it can afford.
    Elders sometimes don’t get paid or a “living by faith”
    Bills get paid late.
    Congregation is begged and manipulated to either volunteer repairs, attend working bees on their only day off for the week or give furniture etc.
    People who do give are announced on Facebook or from the pulpit as being “an amazing blessing so generous”
    Deacons work around the clock, meeting and ringing people all week on top of their normal day jobs.
    Alway struggling with numbers, not growing.

    Then I visited some other churches.
    Only a couple of elders/staff for 3 to even 10 times the number of congregation.
    They are able to pay everyone properly and decorate and maintain the church to a high standard.
    1 meeting a week.
    And this is the clincher…..
    A GROWING healthy church.

    Yes they grow because they do not burden people, they have nice buildings. The congregation have friends (they don’t live their whole life in church and actually HAVE friends that they sometimes bring to church. )
    Imagine that, growing congregation, bills paid, happy people.

    The way NCMI manage their finances is absolute mismanagement and dishonesty. Putting on more people than you can afford is gambling!

    Unfortunately they don’t/can’t see it because they are cut off from the rest of the body of Christ and brain washed. And the worst thing is that there are some lovely people doing these things who don’t understand blessing will come when you are honest and a good steward.

  11. Miss Anon … Please name names and churches!
    Start with your name … Name the men and the churches in your accusations. Unfortunately the internet has made a lot of cowardly people feel very brave … It is cowardly to make all manner of accusations against people without giving them the opportunity to defend themselves or answer your accusations.

    Too much anonymous this …. ambiguous that on this site … I am a seeker … seeking for truth unfortunately all the stuff on this site seems to be based on personal opinion, hurt and mistrust

    Get this all you do for people like me who came seeking is to reinforce that I want NOTHING to do with church actually I am far better off where I am in the world where for the most part people deal with their problems in a civilized manner

    for a website that is called “Discover the truth” there is very little actual evidence on this site other that … as I have said … a lot of hurt bitter people who are hiding behind the anonymity of the internet while make unfounded accusations

    There is not one positive mention of Jesus … His church … The Kingdom of God … How to find salvation … on this site! That is what I came looking for.

    • Freedom Fighter, I would like to address what you said in three points. First the reason why people stay un-named:

      - When one leaves a church that forms the very fabric of your life, which NCMI churches do, they have a fear of being named as it could very well affect there employment, family, life at a new church or even marriage. Coming out of an abusive system is very scary, and people going un-named is a first step in that process.

      - Secondly, you talk about a lack of factual details; very well, then that is you opinion. I would think that the various testimonies on this site should be OK for most. In a church where they do their upmost to give an impression of orthodoxy, actually nailing it down can be problematic, but peoples experiences should suffice given that the church in question bases so much on experience such as tongues and miracles

      - Thirdly, this is not meant to be a evangelical website. It was never its purpose. It is aimed at Christians and those who have left Christ. Perhaps I should include a gospel message, and I would thank you for the advise, I hope I would not be judged on a lapse like this, or me mistaking my audience. You are more than welcome to contact me should you wish to learn more about what Christ did for you and me, I will be happy. Indicate if you would like this in a reply, and I will contact you via email, or perhaps you prefer twitter, either way is fine with me.

      And for the record, as I no longer fear the system I was brought out of:

      There used to be a section about who I am here. Due to threats, it has been edited out

      I was lied to, witnessed abuse, belittled and witnessed the belittlement of others. I witnessed financial abuse and I witnessed the eldership’s lack of regard for a woman abused by a member.

  12. I see you are following all of my twitter accounts, and you are a regular member on this blog, but yet after your comment about Miss Anon, you still remain anonymous ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

    This blog is aimed at believers who are at risk because of NCMI. If you are happy in your NCMI church, well them you carry on. But this blog has been around for years and during the time we have been able to help believers to believe.

    We might not have the so called hard evidence, but what we do have is many believers and lovers of Christ, being abused, hurt, manipulated and ultimately pushed away from God.

    Its a fact, its happening in my town and churches around the world. Forced to Hide and I are open about who we are, the people on this blog who have just come out of an abusive church are fearful as with any cults.

    If you are seeking Christ or redemption, then you are free to chat to us, however 99.9% and the sole purpose of this blog is for those who are believes wanting or questioning the NCMI church.

    Oh and by the way, Most of the NCMI churches are aware of this site and at times have been asked to comment. In fact I regularly message Russ ( and one or two other elders) from NCF in Pmburg. But they choose to hide behind their lies. ( this includes Tyrone himself)

  13. Forced to Hide and Anon Writer

    I can remain anonymous because I am not the one making unfounded allegations

    let me answer you in order

    You guys are making out like churches are run by some demonized boogie men … people fearing for the lives/jobs/ family careers sound more like you are talking about the mob than the church! I think unless you can provide some CONCRETE evidence for all of this it simply comes across as far fetched and fictional

    Secondly … you say it is my opinion that there are no facts on this blog! That is not an opinion ( and your friend Anon Writer admits later that you have NO hard evidence) there simply are no substantiated facts to anything you are saying! It is all so vague and out there and this one abused that one … like I have asked … name names /places and situations …. let me know when one of these things has come to court / show a police report or something … otherwise it looks like there is no truth in anything you are saying … for a website that calls itself “discovering the truth” there is very little substantiated truth anywhere to be found

    Thirdly, Forced to Change and I do appreciate your humility here in saying that maybe it would be a good idea to have a gospel message, but in my OPINION this would be one of the last groups of people I would listen to talking about grace and forgiveness. I have seen NOTHING positive positive posted here by ANYONE! Bitter root bitter fruit … I’m afraid. What would be more helpful is that you ask all your followers to never to speak of Jesus either privately or publicly they are obviously, seriously disqualified to speak on subjects of grace and forgiveness.

    Ray I appreciate your humble admission that you have NO hard evidence …( I would say you have very little evidence at all ) …. that is all I was asking for! I thank you for your humble offer to chat about redemption but unfortunately you to have came across as bitter and bent!

    I really want to tell you as an unbeliever … who went looking for “The Truth” this website has done more to put me off Jesus and church than any other event / person or happening in my life! If as an unbeliever I went looking for the truth and found this website I think others would as well … and I think that is a shame. All of you one this blog need to evaluate wether you are doing more harm than good!

    If your desire is simply to help people then perhaps this needs to be a private conversation or the alternative is you are going to have lots of people like me who are switched off to jesus and the church as a result of your actions … not sure that that is something you want to take responsibility for

    • Do you live in South Africa freedom fighter and have you attended a NCMI relating church?

    • Also FF – You want proof of the hurt, then go read the comments on this pro-NCMI blog: http://bit.ly/lru6u5

      Then go look for blog posts that are about other denominations and form a contrast based on that

  14. Freedom fighter, what is your name and email address? If you are seeking God I will send you a list of good churches in your area, I may even know good Christian people in your town that can help you.

    If however in the unlikely event that you have been dishonest and lying about your interest in the site and are already a Christian and go to an NCMI church where you are on leadership, then don’t worry about sending me those details :p

  15. Also regarding the accusation that those posting on here are bitter and unforgiving. Please read through all the posts. You will see person after person saying when they left ncmi no one would speak to them.

    I have many friends from different seasons of my life, sports friends, school friends, 2 different churches, friends from different cities I have lived in. Some times the friendships just drifted apart, a few ended badly. All of my friends have been able to forgive and move on and just be happy to reconnect (Facebook is great). non Christians are able to forgive me for stupid things I had done and were just thrilled to hear from me and catch up.

    If you leave NCMI most people and especially those in leadership will never ever speak to you again, and never forgive you for leaving. Even if you were friends for years!

    The only conclusion I can come to is to stay away from this group if you don’t want stress and heartache.

  16. Forced to Hide.. I do not live in South Africa and have never attended an NCMI church … I was quite plain with you that I found out about all this from you on Twitter and then you told me to check out your Blog

    The link you asked me to read is more of the same … no proof, anonymous accusations that are devoid of fact or truth (As one of your own guys admitted!!!!!)

    Miss Anon … I was plain with you … I am not the one making the baseless accusations … I also told you that I would not accept any help from any of you who are making these accusations! As far as I am concerned you have all disqualified yourselves from helping ANYBODY!

    Unfortunately the internet allows ANYBODY to say ANYTHING about ANYBODY without ANY PROOF! and when they do it anonymously it is cowardly and unfair!!!

    It looks to me like the NCMI group that you so willingly attack and make out to be sooooo evil, have taken the high road by not getting involved and not stooping to your level

    seriously .. I am not even sure why I am trying to help you see that all this BULL is doing more harm than good!

    Please do not respond to this post … I am done with all of this ridiculous arguing and will NEVER return to this website that seems to be based on a single principal “Misery loves company” I hope you are all happy with yourselves – all you have done is put me off church and seeking God … I hope you are satisfied with the results of your selfish foolishness!

    As far as I am concerned I am done with all of you … You deserve each other … I dont!!!!

    • Ok, so you are not from South Africa, and you have never attended a NCMI church.

      Your email address starts with capezulu@***** . This should indicate that you are at least South African. Am I unfair in stating that, seeing that in South Africa we have both the Cape and Zulus?

      Secondly, you IP address indicate that you live in Denver Colorado! Now that’s a revelation if I have ever heard one. On this site, we have had two people comment that live in Denver Colorado, the first being a NCMI pastor who apparently has never met Tyrone Daniels and boarders on harassment on my FB page, the second being you.

      I know of another South African ex-pat who lives in Denver Colorado and his name is Tyrone Daniels. Could it be unreasonable, considering all the places in the world that you could have come from that a South African, who is now an ex-pat in America, living in the same town as Tyrone Daniels and living in the same town as the HQ for NCMI could in fact be associated with NCMI?

      Could it even be possible that the person commenting is in fact Tyrone Daniels?

      Quite a lot of conclusions to draw, but I will leave it at this. If you are lying, then let you lie be your torturer and God be your judge, because it is this type of deceiving that made me leave NCMI in the first place.

      Oh, and if you know Tyrone, tell him to email me, he has the address and tell him to stop sending his little NCMI-CIA to this site and get the guts to come here himself

      God Bless

  17. Hi Tyrone, nice that you came by, even if you were in disguise :)

    You can make changes in NCMI. When you stop being angry with us, I hope you think about how you guys can have less meetings, make genuine life long friends, and open up to the rest of the body of Christ and just love them and respect them because they are doing good. Forget about building NCMI for a while and just start loving people. Even if they don’t want to become Christians can you love them and respect them and give them your time? I hope so.

  18. Also Tyrone, you seem pretty stressed out, you should probably stop commenting here. Starting a new church, with the eyes of the NCMI world on you would no doubt be super stressful.

    If you want it to work, please don’t burden the people, one meeting a week is enough and a homegroup. No more.

    The REAL people in your church are the ppl who come on Sunday morning and go out for the rest of the week and love the world and people around them.
    The people in the prayer meeting are those who want a promotion within the church. Unfortunately that’s human nature. You don’t need a prayer meeting.
    Not every-one needs, should or wants to be a leader, respect the work people in the workforce do. They should get as much respect and love as those who want to be leaders. They are leaders in the world, and that is what Jesus died for.

    If they come on Sunday that’s enough! They obviously liked the preach. They are part of your church, respect and enjoy that. It’s enough. It’s good.

    Don’t have ppl ringing/meeting them every week, let them make their own friends, that way if they move city, they will probably get to keep their friends >> as opposed to never hearing from their *friends* again.

    Pay your staff well and ethically and properly, they should after time be able to afford a cadillac, a nice house and a holiday once a year. Get some retirement fund contributions and pay the correct tax to the govt.

    Put aside money for church repairs, nice decorations, marketing (ipads etc) before you put more staff on. ;)

    Be normal.

  19. I have made a new post in response to freedom fighter. Check it out

  20. NCMI is in bad need of leadership that has sound theology and true educators of the Bible. I have been sitting in a NCMI church in Johannesburg for over a year and listend to the good , the bad and the ugly messages. It is very obvious that the entire movemen t started by Dudley Daniels is not doctrinally or theologically sound. Just this weekend I went to listen to his son Tyrone and it was highly amusing! The tragedy is that most people attending these churches do not realise they are very mislead in biblical error. Kingdon Now Theology is not good. Tyrone obviously moved to the States because things in AUSSIE where not going too well for him and hey everybody knows it is easy to get into the USA on a Religious Visa hence the sudden “calling of God” to start churhes in Southern California – and now Colorado. Why is nobody in NCMI called to GHANA or ICELAND or Malawi or RUssia? No, everybody goes to Australia, New Zealand, California or somewhere in the US because the bottom line is they all want out of South AFrica!!!! Dudley Daniels started a business and has opened the doors for people to get out. Hopefully all these people will get some very good education in the US like I have, as I am an American with a degree in Theology and yes I am a Charismatic. Hey I can honestly suggest you listen to Dr Chuck Missler, Churck SMith, Dr David Hockin and go to a good Bible College. Oh, Dr Brett Peterson in Southern California can help you guys with good doctrine, he is located in Rancho Santa Margurita not too far from Brea!!! Hi from the USA!!!!

    • Aem your comments on the NCMI are considerably better than what has gone on previously.(The rest seem to be based on hurt,unrealized expectations and so and so didn’t do what he was supposed to do)
      Yes certainly NCMI is deficient in sound doctrine.The closing down of their theological college -ITCC is ample proof of this.
      I attended a church which was a Babel of theological confusion.I heard preached from various people an Arminian perspective,(Dudley Daniels was one),a Calvinist perspective,word of faith-you are little gods and Bill Johnson that word of faith preacher extolled.The glue that held it all together was “to the nations” and “God is doing a new thing” and revival this year which never ever happened.(Kingdom now theology)

      Continuous unfulfilled prophecies were the order of the day and I delight to tell you that I had prophesied over me that I was an idle man!! Witchcraft?
      The church never grew,and half the congregation were appointed to leadership to make sure they came to church!!
      Paradoxically I am now in a small Reformed church which with its few resources has been able to buy its own property with 1 fulltime staff member.What a contrast to the previous word of faith church preaching prosperity but still after 15years operating out of a school hall.This particular church was hypercharismatic as you might have guessed which goes to show that NCMI is all about numbers.(This particular church was also so gullible that years before my time and on the whisper of a verbal agreement they built a church on land that wasn’t theirs.The owner then charged them the cost of their building and the land!They lost out and now there’s no church building but lots of townhouses.)

      By the way if you read the blog on Rob Rufus it quotes him as saying that they Dudley Daniels etc moved to Australia because they felt South Africa was imploding before the democratic elections.So that tells you a lot -an apostolic prophetic movement that has no clue on how to read the signs of the times.(Real racists?)
      Dudley Daniels in fact in 1986 joined AoG Australia before getting back into the NCMI that he had started.(Takeover bid attempt?The Houstons got there first!

      To get back to Kingdom Now theology I have no doubt that deep down NCMI feels that they are part of the final worldwide Apostolic universal church that will take over the earth before His coming.Just look at the New Apostolic Reformation prophets that they have supported-Paul Cain,Rick Joyner,Todd Bentley etc who all preach this manifest sons of God heresy.Joyner prophesies on a Joel Army that will take over even the reluctant churches-err yes by force!So you have been warned Forced to Hide!You are a target at the right time!
      (It’s all Latter Rain Doctrine heresy.

      Guys the big weaknesses in churches all over the place is gullibility.Your trust should not be in church models,prophecies or mere man who is a vapour.Your trust should firmly be in Jesus Christ and His Word.”As a result we are no longer to be children,tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine,by the trickery of men,by craftiness in decietful scheming;but speaking the truth in love we are to grow up..” Eph4:14

      Sites like this ideally shouldn’t exist.However because people are no longer reading the Word they serve an important purpose in informing and warning people.
      Keep up the work.There is more deceit and craftiness coming. “His Word above all else”

  21. Amen Chaz

    I have previously been involved in an NCMI church and have either witnessed or experienced many of the things posted by those who have been hurt by NCMI. I have seen leaders in the NCMI church and other non relating church’s continually fall back on the standard that ” we all make mistakes” and while this is true most of us try to learn from our mistakes (the process is called maturing) and do not seek to continually get away with the same “mistake”. I have also seen various leaders rely on what they believe to be a central truth, i.e we should submit to our leaders and never speak out against their church lest we find ourselves condemned. True scripture does call us to submit to leadership but it doesn’t tell us to blindly follow, instead we are to read and question. Yes we are cautioned about speaking out against the church. But when we speak out against the leaders of a church we are not speaking out against the church that is the body of Christ but against wrongdoing that is and has taken place under the banner of the church and this is not wrong. I know it is not wrong because the Bible contains many places where the prophets and apostles spoke out against what was happening in the church or temple, you only have to read 1st and 2nd Corinthians to see this in action.
    I have come to wonder if the real reason that the majority of self professed christians do not attend a church is due to what they have seen happening in the church. I have heard many leaders put this down to backsliding and laziness, but I do not think this is the reason.
    I have come to realise that the church as we know it is not a safe place, that the enmy exerts great effort to undermine and subvert from within all while we are focused on being attacked from outside. I also believe that we need to seek wisdom and discernment more than any other gift, for without these we will not know where, when or how to use any gift the Lord gives us.

    ps. I agree that freedomfighter is most likely an NCMI elder or Tyrone Daniel himself for a “nonbeliever” he doth protest too much

    • Thanks for your post. I like your point on the so called “Backsliders”. The problems that I list here are in no way limited to NCMI, and I have seen many people leave church because of abuses in other churches. The point of difference with NCMI is that the church model (among other reasons) protects the abusers under the guise of autonomous relationships. In other churches, such abuses did not last long, and were dealt with by the church, or by the Mother body. The “backsliders” kept their relationship with Christ strong outside of the church environment and returned. From my experience, things in NCMI have to get really bad before intervention is made. There was a church in Howick that became “EXCLUSIVE” rejecting all other churches. They then started on a “PURGE” campaign within their own church, expelling so called “sinners” and “deviants”. After another church in Hilton started getting effected by this churches policies, Ray Olivier was called in to council the church. Eventually this church was unrelated from NCMI. You could say well-done, but the people who were purged are no better off than they were before. The church that abused them spiritually still exists in exactly the same way that it did before, with the same eldership and everything. The only difference is that they are not NCMI, or not embarrassing to NCMI.

      NCMI promotes authority over its members, but its parent body cannot show authority over its own churches. The model is contradictory, and promotes abuse. What about the cast out sheep, are they not important?

      • N.C.M.I. is more dangerous than most “independant” churches simply by the fact that they offer an illusion of accountability while providing only a secret club style control. i.e they must either appoint or approve all elders in any given church and if any church steps beyond the bounds of what the head office deems acceptable they may be told they can no longer “relate” to NCMI, yet most of the NCMI faithfull cannot see this.

        They believe that the leadership will take care of them, that the hundreds of people who have left (over 5 years in 1 church) were all wrong, or just not a “good fit”

        They see the easter give away video Tyrone made and they don’t see a slick advertising campaign that is more reminiscent of selling time shares (in heaven?), they just think it’s great.

        I know these good people have drank the koolaid (so to speak) and that nothing I say or do will open their eyes so I will continue to pray that God opens their eye’s and heals their hearts once the eyes have opened.

        I wish that N.C.M.I made it a requirement that every relating church had the letters N.C.M.I. emblazoned on their enrty doors. This might server to warn the unwary that this place is truly Not Christ Managed Inside.
        ,

  22. Forced to Hide -valid points in your last blog.The model of a pyriamid on its side with Jesus Christ leading is ultimately unworkable.This is simply because the doctrine is all wrong-apostolic prophetic to start off with.
    It’s a pretty big assertion that you are restoring these offices to the church as if through 2000 years of church history they got it all wrong and now hey presto you’ve got the model.

    Because it’s a model grounded in business speak and not the Word it is bound to be open to incredible abuses by people who do not understand what apostolic office truly means-how about ” a spectacle to the world…fools….weak…without honour..as the scum of the world”1 Cor 6:9-14 or have not been appointed to such office by God but rather by man.(Other than Moses who says a prophet will be raised up like me show me a single prophet who ever called himself a prophet.It was the people who confirmed his office by his deeds)

    So it becomes a corporate heirarchy .To prove this I can list several churches where leadership was imposed on churches by his holiness an apostolic bigwig.This leadership imposition is by “friendship before function”-so its my mate from Durbs and screw his lack of spiritual qualifications.
    One imposition backfired pretty miserably where after the leadership had all been stood down (adultery) a church merger through a so called new church plant failed spectacularly.The whole church vamoosed elsewhere because they knew their own leaders and weren’t prepared to have leadership imposed-especially the fluttery prophetic type that prophesies over cabbages!

    By the way talking about the prophetic -Anne Van Niekerk prophesed over this particular church that within a year they would see such great revival and great numbers.2 years later nothing ,numbers shrinking and Anne’s now gone and committed suicide.

    Forced to Hide I see the spiritual abuses as coming from the trans local teams.By allowing abuses to happen because they are afraid of limiting their own spheres of influence they perpetuate the pattern of abuse. They’ve given themselves the names and positions and are ultimately responsible before God.The buck stops there.

    I believe that the NCMI is now too ramshackle and unwieldly.It has a lightweight of a youngster at the top and as with all empires it is busily disintigrating. What’s your take.Is their a future for a movement with no discernable clear ideology other than that of numbers.

  23. [quote]“I believe that the NCMI is now too ramshackle and unwieldly.It has a lightweight of a youngster at the top and as with all empires it is busily disintigrating. What’s your take.Is their a future for a movement with no discernable clear ideology other than that of numbers.”[/quote]

    Most empires that disintegrate apparently become stronger when smaller. This is because they shed all the dead weight and baggage that weighed them down. If they learn from their mistakes they could actually do ok. They will need to reinvent themselves in a less extreme way and inject some honesty, accountability and commonsense into the leadership structure tho.

  24. sad reading peoples comments wrt non scriptural actions, a church with staff ?? buildings ?? incorporating chinese religions (fire tunnels)
    Sunday Church has FORMALISED relationships !

  25. I came across this blog through the Wikipedia entry on NCMI. I have been a member of 3 NCMI relating churches during the past 2 decades. I have not experienced any of the abuses mentioned, except a mild version, once many years ago when rebuked for being late for home-group by a home-group leader, whom I countered successfully for not taking my personal circumstances into consideration (small children and an unbelieving husband).
    The only other difficulty I’ve had is that NCMI in our country has turned its back on the only political party to represent Christians and uphold godly values in government. Originally there was support, but then the supporters of ungodly parties took exception. There seems to have been a dictat in this regard, as none of the NCMI relating churches will allow it and this has upset supporters of the party, who view this as fearing men rather than God. I had a run-in with the leaders of one church who tried to stop me handing out election flyers, for the Christian political party, outside the church (i.e. off the church property), but I wouldn’t back down and I cited the Electoral Act.
    Apart from this, I have been very happy in the churches where I have fellowshipped.
    What is stated in one of the comments above as a glowing testimony of “some other churches” (i.e. non-NCMI), is what I have experienced in the two NCMI relating churches where I have primarily fellowshipped:
    In my current church (closer to home than the previous ones), we have 4 elders, but only the lead-elder is full-time. There must be around 300 people in this new and growing church, which concentrates on salvation, healing and discipleship rather than nice buildings and fancy decor (however, my previous church does have a nice building). Apart from the Sunday meeting, there is only 1 meeting during the week. I have seen no signs of spiritual or emotional abuse in either of the churches to which I belonged.
    In fact, I experienced more spiritual oppression and misery when I was with a mainline denominational church – they don’t like anyone “rocking the boat”. I waited for 4 years after I came to know the Lord, until he released me. I would not be in the ministry I am in, and to which the Lord had already called me, had I stayed in the denominational church.
    The church at large (not just NCMI) is a dynamic organism with individual churches having their own “flavour” and emphases. Every church tends to be shaped by the leadership, regardless of the denomination, flow, etc. Some of the quibbles on this blog are petty and judgemental, and a matter of personal opinion. Every leader is human and those VDPs (Very Demanding Persons) who expect the leaders to jump through hoops for them and their demands have the wrong end of the stick. Because leaders are human and therefore flawed individuals, there is always the possibility of abuses, and it is tragic that these do occur. I do know two friends in two different countries who experienced spiritual abuse in NCMI relating churches, and it saddened me greatly. The one leader, in another country, has since stepped down from leadership. I have interacted with the other leader, who is from a background of faulty doctrine (Creflo Dollar, etc.), and is controlling and somewhat odd. He comes across very personable and friendly, and NCMI leaders possibly haven’t seen the other side of him. My spiritual warning bells went off quickly when I visited that church, and I decided it would not be my spiritual home.
    Perhaps this is a main failing in the NCMI structure, in that maybe there’s not close enough attention paid to the quality of leadership – but then others would say “Isn’t that too controlling?”, if they summarily intervene, since the relating churches are independent (damned if you do, and damned if you don’t). I know that in the past there have been leaders who were brought under discipline. I have also encountered a general lack of spiritual discernment, or discernment of spirits, in many leaders, but then there are many mainline churches that are far worse.
    With regard to this blog, one thing I’ve learned is that people who have a critical spirit and murmur, are divisive, feeding off one another’s complaints and becoming more and more critical. Read Exodus and Hebrews on this.
    Another I’ve learned is that you will never find the perfect church, and if you find one that is seemingly perfect, don’t join – you’ll spoil it! (Old joke). I have known people who can do nothing but complain about the church they attend, including my former church, always finding fault. I’ve seen critical people move from church to church and they always end up finding fault and moving on.
    A third point, which was made when I attended an orientation course, is that if you cannot identify with the church’s vision, and feel you won’t be able to support the leadership and accept the leadership’s authority (I’m referring to godly, Bibical submission), or you don’t like their doctrine, then you haven’t found the right church. Often people who make waves are people who have issues with authority (as distinct from authoritarianism). My standard prayer is that the Lord will keep or bring church leaders in line with his Word and his will. I was won over to NCMI by Dudley Daniel’s message on his vision for the church, which was a breath of fresh air after being stifled for several years in a traditional church where the Holy Spirit was squelched.
    Fourthly, people expect pastors to sort them out and solve their problems. They can’t. Only Jesus Christ can. Pastors can only give some guidelines and pray with you. Early in my Christian walk, I used to run to various people for help, until the Lord removed those people and basically I had to walk with Him alone. Most of the healing I have received has been the work of the Holy Spirit sovereignly bringing revelation and whatever else was necessary – just me and the Lord.
    Finally, I try to follow one of Dudley Daniel’s maxims – keep short accounts. Learn to forgive and not harbour grudges. If there is good reason to confront someone or deal with an issue, then do so in a godly way. Pray for the Lord’s will to be done – it’s amazing how he can bring people round or resolve situations. If something is seriously wrong, pursue its rectification, but not in a spiteful way. Don’t gossip behind people’s backs, like these threads do. Above all, do an attitude check. Difficult situations either make us better or bitter. We are to become spiritually mature, not be like whinging, discontented toddlers.

    • Thank you, “observer”, for your reaction! This was needed on this blog. I don’t recognize all the negative criticism written above, and agree with your comment.
      Let us not damage the Body of Christ, but find unity in love. The world is watching the church and laughing at us, especially when we fight each other. If you thing you are a christian, behave like it, the way Jesus showed us.

      • Did Jesus ever rebuke those that were doing wrong?

        Also, have NCMI adherents ever written criticism of other Christendom groups such as the Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness?

  26. Let us suppose hypothetically for a moment that a South African Pastor who was a gifted speaker and charismatic leader had questionable motives . Imagine him in the late eighties and early nineties recognizing the fall of aparthied and fearing the ensuing aftermath. Wanting desparately to get friends and family out of South Africa he devised a plan to adapt a Multi Level Marketing approach to the church setting himself up at the top of the pyramid. Ask yourself what churches would be candidates for this type of relationship and what could he possibly offer them to convince them to relate to his scheme. Pastors of independent charismatic churches have a great desire for some form of covering and support. They are literally out there on their own trusting God and making all the administrative decisions, no one to lean on and no one to ask for advice. Moreover and foremost these pastors want to establish relationships with others who will come to their church ministering in the gifts of the spirit. Enter the translocal Apostolic team .Instant help for he autonomous pastor. Dynamic speakers come to equip ,heal, evangelize and train the saints. They only come if invited. Relating is voluntary. Contribution to the “Common Ministry Fund” is voluntary.The pastor can now concentrate on the flock because his worries about retirement and a suitable replacement have vanished. He will be promoted to a team and continue to draw support form his home church and the Common Ministry fund. He will be advised to put his wife on the payroll and , he can promote his children and their spouses to Elder and put them on the payroll.
    ( Leading a small youth group is equivalent going to bible college ) Is there opportunity for travel? You bet. Several times a year all expenses paid. It’s a sweet deal once you make Elder.
    Multi level marketing only works if the bottom of the pyramid keeps expanding so any thriving existing church is welcome to relate but for new expansion we only want to target… I mean God is only calling us to plant churches in upscale cities like Westminster Colorado or Dana Point California. 400 rich people tithing is better than 400 poor people. No man can come to God unless the spirit draws him. And Harley Davidson is THE SPIRIT OF AMERICA.

    How much of the above is true? I believe most of it is . I fear all of it. Maybe it started innocently but it appears to have grown into a giant mustard tree.
    NCMI needs to become transparent. They say they have no headquarters and no leader yet multiple 100s of churches are NCMI related. Who handles the logistics? Where do they send the money for the common ministry fund? Who controlls the purse? Who decides who gets support and how much?

  27. Ive have never seen a church that has no structure & the pastor had a nerve to threaten my husband because we were not happy with the things we saw happening in the church.This church is based in Irene Centurion in Pretoria.I have never seen pastors to carry on in this manner.We have a right to go & fellowship were we feel we want to go.

  28. Hi guys –
    have just stumbled across this blog site while searching for something else. Wow ! It seems there’s a lot of angry and bitter people out there. First let me say I’m not about to defend NCMI, they are big enough to do that for themselves if they so wish.

    But it does seem to me that there are quite a few people commenting here with only 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand stories, the further you go from the source the more distortions occur. Others are more genuine who are commenting from personal experience and I hear their hurt and concerns and feel for them. There are also those who don’t know any NCMI leader personally and who have never spent any meaningful time in an NCMI relating church. Their comments are best left alone as they hold little credibility and have no real authority to comment.

    The cynicism and at times the vitriolic hatred being voiced is truly sad to see. William your theory posted May12th is totally unfounded and incredibly cynical. NCMI’s birth in Australia and other nations certainly was not planned in the way you describe and your comments do nothing to further genuine conversation.

    The motivation of these men was I believe honest and pure and through the 1990s this ministry team made some wonderful advances for the kingdom of God. They are men and women who truly love God and most are trying to do their best. Are they perfect ? – absolutely not. What NCMI began and modeled during these early years – it is, sadly no longer. It is clear that they have lost their way some what. There have been very definite departures from the original model they operated with. Values became laws, friendship before function became friendship if you function my way. Extra biblical requirements became mandatory to qualify for any level of leadership. Attendance to LTTs – GTTs and every other T became compulsory at any cost. This is not what NCMI originally represented. It has been very sad to see the steady decline.
    How do I know ? – I WAS THERE.

    Have people been hurt within NCMI – yes. Have people been manipulated and controlled – yes. Do people feel abused and used – yes. Has there been questions over financial mismanagement – yes – are these allegations true, certainly some of them are. Some are not. How do I know ? – I WAS THERE. Not observing form afar but from within at a very high level for many years. I won’t expose myself anymore than that.

    My observations and experiences are not 3rd or 4th hand as are some. I was in leadership in a NCMI relating church for more than 16 years and have visited relating churches in almost every major continent. I’ve watched with deep sadness the steady decline in modus operandi, doctrinal position and relational faithfulness/unfaithfulness. I’ve watched as friends and colleagues have been abandoned, ridiculed and discarded. Personally I am no longer associated with this group, yet I know many of those still involved and most I cannot question their integrity. Can I extend that to all, sadly no.

    Some of the names on these posts I recognize, and I know your hurt. Others I know your names but find it difficult to follow your complaint as I know your comments are only 2nd or at best 3rd hand. While others are using this forum to push a personal bias that has little to do with the real debate.

    Is there genuine cause for concern – yes – I believe there is, but how these concerns are dealt with is another matter. Bitterness will always lead to others being defiled. Somewhere in all of this hurt, healing and forgiveness must come. To all those who have been hurt along the way, you have my support as someone who was hurt and abused just as badly over a several year period. But … there is life after NCMI, there is healing and there is mercy and compassion for others.

    The warnings and advice must come graciously and redemptively. Paul speaks of being on guard regarding those who would deliberately deceive, but he does not say aggressively attack them. What he does say is that we should “make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace” Paul also says in
    Phil 1:27 “Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel”

    The Gospel that NCMI is preaching is not different, it is not “another gospel” and as such we should be standing together as kingdom brothers. NCMIs current modus operandi regarding apostolic leadership and church administration is where the main issues lie. This is where the conversation should remain, please do not let this debate slip into the mire of personal accusation and abuse.

    Would love to talk SL if you’re still watching this post. Spky

    • Hi. Thanks for your post.

      I think that it is important to realize that when people hurt they attack. This is a basic human trait. With that said, I believe from the spirit of your post you understand that and have given sound Biblical advice. I have worked through my anger over many years and I have even got to the point of forgiveness. In my line of work I have to come into contact with NCMI folk everyday. Sometimes I find it hard not to be cynical. Majority if the time by working with these people I feel justified in my stance, others have impressed me as they do truely love Jesus. Would love to talk to you more personally as I believe that bringing the end to a movement as vast as NCMI would be detrimental to the Church of God and rather, somehow bringing the love of Christ back into their mirth would be a better solution

      • Hi Mark, would be happy to talk privately but am reluctant to get into any long term open debate across your site. It’s the violent who take the kingdom by force, but it’s the humble and gracious (not weak and eucemenically tollerant ) who can influence internal change. I believe the most effective way we can do this is by demonstrating to others what kingdom life truly is. blessings. spky

    • Spky, I take issue with you calling anyone who calls NCMI out on dishonesty and corruption “bitter.” Are abused children who take their case to court bitter? Are government ” whistle blowers” just bitter people who should have been gracious and forgiving?

      I have many first hand stories, some perhaps even about you (if you are who I think you are.) Everyone has different experiences. You make it sound like you know everything. And only what you experienced counted.

      People should feel free to give their opinions. If untrue, people who know differently can respond underneath to give another perspective. The truth will come about from discussion.

  29. spky and Forced to Hide, My post has bothered me since I posted it. I would like to apologize to anyone offended by it,especially Dudley Daniels. After introspection I realized I am indeed angry more than 15 years later and did not realize it. I put the worst possible spin on events I have witnessed some 1st hand some second hand. ” Relating ” to NCMI caused a deep split in our California fellowship. There is no doubt it was orchestrated by Dudley Daniels. I was there and I had close relationship with people who are now in upper NCMI leadership. He ( Daniels) installed a South African pastor whose leadership over the next decade and a half has led to charges of fraud and law suits. The church no longer exists in that city.
    To quote the famous theologian Charles Schultz……Good people. Bad results .

    • Hi William, I understand your anger and frustration and pain in seeing a church you loved be damaged like it has. I have grieved as I’ve watched this same scenario play out around the world many times over the past 10 years.I too have had to deal with the same anger, frustration and pain, but I discovered that in the end holding onto the anger and bitterness was detrimental to no one but me. Forgiveness is a vital step in finding healing, the anger and frustration can quickly go, the pain sometimes takes a little longer but it does go, thank God. It doesn’t change the facts of what has happened or been done, but it does release us back into a life of joy, peace and liberty. William I commend you for your humilty in making such a public apology, power and strength to you, my prayer is that as we are all restored the fragrance of heaven will flow through us to those who need it most. blessings. spky

  30. Due to there not been enough strict controls and ongoing visits by the Overseer Elders of the City; NCMI lead church leadership abuse their positions.There are a few God fearing NCMI leaders so don’t paint everybody with the same brush. Stricter control and accountability needs to be excercised which will stop the ungodly abuse in may areas by lead Elders. As much as God is a God who forgives, “abusive, manipulative leaders” be warned for one day you will need to give an account to the most High God, so please don’t take your positions likely. As long as we appoint leaders on emotion, nepatism, favoritism and not by God’s standards the church around the world will continue to suffer.

    • One day they will need to give account to God, yes this is true. By why not be accountable today? Before the Internet they could hide. Now they can’t. It’s time to start doing the honest and right thing NCMI.

      Why leave things to God, when you can be upright and do the right thing today? We don’t have to wait until heaven to have church leaders do the right thing. Abuses should be exposed, so we can move forward and learn to behave better.

  31. I just came across this blog and was intrigued (unfortunately not surprised) by the stories I have read. I was involved with Southlands Church International in Diamond Bar/Brea, CA from 1996 – 2001 during which time I had several conversations and got to know well Jon and Tyrone Daniel and Chris Wienand. I also had several interactions with Dudley Daniel at that time.

    I would like to add some “evidence” regarding some of the cult-like or cultish practices of NCMI. But first, I would like to make clear what I mean by ‘evidence.’ Freedom Fighter seems to indicate that only empirically verifiable, judicial, or forensic (in this case, various kinds of documents-financial, etc) are the only things that qualify as ‘evidence’. It was rightly pointed out that NCMI is largely, if not wholly, a feelings/ experiential based faith movement. The point, which may not have been noticed by Freedom Fighter, is that his rejection of the evidence attested to on this site puts the force and status of such evidence in the same boat as the force and status of the evidence that NCMI approves of in leadership decisions. That is, leadership decisions and the general theology of NCMI is largely or wholly experiential–”God is doing a new thing” (which, presumably, can only be known by some kind of experience)–as such, if testimony, etc is unfit to ground accusations of cult-like practices in NCMI, then it is also unfit to ground or give rise to knowledge of what “new thing” God is doing, for example. This is important! If NCMI wants to allow experience as an arbiter in theology, then they must also, on pain of irrationality and simple logical inconsistency, allow experience as an arbiter of accusations of wrong-doing. Further, back to my point about evidence. The testimony of others is a major component of our knowledge. Philosophers (i.e. people who think really hard about the role of various sources of our knowledge) argue that once we remove testimony as a valid source of knowledge, we effectively become skeptical of the possibility of knowing anything at all. The idea is rather simple. Imagine, if you will, what would happen to our knowledge if we removed everything we read or were told (both kinds of testimony)? So, I take it, contra Freedom Fighter, that the testimony of others is a crucial source of our coming to know things. As such, the testimony on this site is crucial (albeit not final) on coming to (at least) justifiably believe that much that is practiced within NCMI, and thus NCMI itself, are dangerous.

    I would like now to relate a few pieces of testimony that illustrate practices and ideas that are: (1) controlling, (2) dangerous and unbiblical, and (3) heretical.

    Allow me first to say that nothing I say here is meant to deny that there are wonderful and sincere Christians both who attend and are in leadership positions within NCMI (even at the highest levels). But, being wonderful and sincere does not cover up being seriously misinformed. I want to be clear, I am not questioning the motives of individuals within NCMI. Rather, I am suggesting that regardless of motives, the fact, and it is a fact, remains that NCMI is not the biblical based model it propounds to be.

    (1) When I left Southlands after five years being deeply involved I thought I had many deep friendships, but I was wrong. From the first day I started attending Southlands, I was involved. I played bass guitar for the youth group starting the second day (I was introduced to the church by one of the then current youth worship team). I quickly became more involved as part of the youth leadership. Within a matter of weeks, I was attending meetings (at least) four times a week. Throughout my time at Southlands, I became fast friends with some of the ‘elite’ of the next generation’s NCMI leaders. Jon Daniel and I played hockey and hung out on a regular basis. I would play rugby in between sunday services with Mark Tapping and Chris Wienand. (For those with even a passing acquaintance with NCMI you understand that this means I was in a position to really know what NCMI is and how it operates.) After five years of almost daily hanging out with Jon, Mark, and not to mention the other less well-known people within the Southlands youth group, I had thought I had made deep and lasting friendships. Upon my leaving, which was on good terms. I simply wrote a letter to the elders expressing some of my concerns (which I would be happy to post at a later date). It was my understanding after years of attending LTTs (leadership training times), that it was one’s choice to “walk with NCMI” until you felt God’s call elsewhere. It was even forcibly expressed that on the occasion of such a call, we would always stay in communion and close (by Chris Wienand, Chris Smith, Jay Grove, and others). Additionally, I spoke with those with whom I was in leadership with in the Youth and they all expressed similar sentiments. I have spoken with only two people from Southlands since then. I do not (and strongly hope that) no one was explicitly told not to communicate with me. However, there is a culture that appears to maintain one is either in leadership or on their way to be in leadership. The consequence of this is that those in neither categories are rejected.

    When I was deeply involved (i.e. before I started on my way out of NCMI), I was in a rather destructive relationship. Without going into details, our relationship was neither spiritually nor psychologically healthy. But, I was prophesied over that I was going to marry her. So, I stayed with her for another year during which time she psychologically abused me. (We should not have been in a relationship at all. Especially her. She was not in a healthy state of mind to be in any relationship, let alone a serious relationship.) After learning about psychology and theology, I ended that destructive time. I am now in a very healthy relationship with a women I met outside of NCMI (in fact, we just passed our ten year wedding anniversary and we have a beautiful daughter and another on the way.) Because I was prophesied over, I stayed in a dangerous and unhealthy situation. (This point carries over to the dangerous and unbiblical category (2) that follows with the added point that this is an unfulfilled prophesy for which the prophet has not been censured, a clear example of teaching contrary to scripture.

    (2) False prophesies about deep and important issues happened routinely. Here are two examples both regarding members of the leadership (i.e. elders) team. Before relating these stories, I want to state that the issues involved are very personal and my purpose in relating them is not to resurface any pain, but rather to highlight a pernicious aspect of NCMI theology.

    (a) An elder (Lloyd) at Southlands became very sick. During the sickness, it was “prophesied” over and over again, “this sickness is not unto death.” Unfortunately, he died as a result of the sickness. He was a wonderful servant of the Lord and our Lord took him. What I want to point out, however, is that the so-called prophets were not censured contrary to biblical teaching, which NCMI purports to be about. I know this because I (in what grace and humility a nineteen-year old can show) approached all of the elders about this, including Chris Wienand and Tyrone Daniel (both members of the “apostolic” team). I said that the situation is extremely sad, but someone needs to make sure that those “prophets” never “prophesy” again. The reply was that I was “without grace” and didn’t “understand the nature of prophesy”.

    (b) Another couple on the eldership team was trying to get pregnant for years. There was a “prophesy” that they would bear a baby. Again, unfortunately, this did not come to pass. They did adopt (itself a difficult and emotional process). I am thankful for their ability to adopt and for the love they bear their adopted child. However, those who “prophesied” that they would bear a child were not censured. I was met with similar responses to this as with the previous incident.

    I want to make it clear that I am deeply sorry for the pain and loss of the spouses, couples, and families involved in both of these incidents. However, one can have these attitudes about the incidents while also having the attitude that those who “prophesied” should not be allowed to “prophesy” again. This simply did not happen.

    There is another practice that heard espoused by Chris Wienand, Tyrone Daniel, Dudley Daniel, Jon Daniel, Rob Rufus, among others that was not actually practiced. One of the things that initially attracted me to Southlands, and by extension NCMI, was the humility captured in the idea that “if ever they say something from the pulpit, but is later shown to them to be false, they would publically recant.” While attending Southlands, I was a young Christian who was insatiable in my desire to learn, study, and know. I read theology, biographies of important historical Christians (George Whitfield, Augustine, etc), and would not cease in asking questions. After almost every sermon, I would approach the elder who delivered the sermon and ask questions about things I did not understand. I was often met with kind evasions in the guise of “teaching”. On many occasions I was told I had “no grace”. To be fair, I was in my late teens and probably did not ask the questions in the most humble of attitudes. However, the tone in which the question is asked does not entail the content of the question is invalid. But, such evasions imply the question does not matter; it does! Nevertheless, I persevered and tried to reconcile what I heard from the pulpit with what Christians have believed for centuries, especially in light of my reading of theology. Finally, after I began to attend a local Christian university and really studied theology, I pressed on what I took (and still take) to be central issues vis-à-vis NCMI. In particular, I spoke with then elder of Southlands, Jay Grove, about the second blessing (i.e. the baptism of the holy spirit). After lengthy conversations and argument, I convinced Jay that the teaching of Southlands on the baptism of the Holy Spirit was wrong. I then asked if he was going to recant the teaching publicly as the leadership in NCMI had so often claimed they would. His reply was, in fact, a major turning point for me. He said, “no.” When I asked why he said, “because I don’t believe it.” He had admitted that the biblical basis he claimed for the teaching did not support it, but that did not affect what he believed. (Note, my point here is not to suggest that I was right and he was wrong. I think this is true and would be happy to discuss it further with others, though. My point, rather, is that even after convinced that his position did not have the biblical support he claimed for it, he would not recant it.) In essence, he was urging that his own experience and belief trumped that of scripture. This is a scary position to be in.

    (3) My third point (that I want to make here) concerns the often claimed, “God is doing a new thing.” Once I began to study theology, Christian history, and philosophy, I was puzzled by this. The puzzle comes when one things about the object of ‘new’ in the claim. Is God doing a new thing in reference to His plans and purposes or in terms of us, His creation? Either way one interprets this remark indicates something deeply heterodox, if not heretical, concerning God. If the first, then God simply changes His mind and who is say that God won’t change His mind again. In fact, it implies that the plan and purposes of God were not sufficient, originally, to fulfill his plans and purposes. After all, if He is doing a new thing, them presumably it is because He needs to do a new thing to bring about his plans and purposes. Why not have a second incarnation, death and resurrection since His original plan needs modification? But the same point holds if the idea is that God is doing a new thing somehow because of and in response to His creation. Are we to think that we can thwart God’s plans and purposes? I really would like some elucidation as to what this means. I suspect it is simply another way to isolate those not in leadership (and perhaps manipulate and control them). What, the average NCMI attendant might ask, is this new thing that God is doing, and why don’t I know about it? The answer, like all word-of-faith movements, is simply that those who don’t know or don’t have access to what this new thing is do not have the faith to know it or are not anointed to know it. But, this leads to deep and troubling questions regarding the sufficiency of faith. If I don’t know what the new thing God is doing is, do I have enough faith to even be saved? These are old questions for charismatic Christians, but apply equally to NCMI.

    I would like to finish my discussion of concerns regarding NCMI with one final note. I am, in many ways, thankful for many of the times at Southlands and for many of the things I learned to care about at Southlands. First and foremost, is that I learned to be passionate about Jesus. But passion carries one only so far. What happens when, as St. John of the Cross teaches, God puts us through the Dark Night of the Soul—when God withdraws experiencing Him from us? To put it more concretely, our relationship with Jesus is often modeled in Scripture as like a relationship of husband and wife. In marriage, sometimes the passion and feelings aren’t there. How do we react in those situations? When we are healthy, we react by choosing love, rather than feeling love. For me, I choose love of Jesus even when I don’t feel it. I am not sure how a theology based fundamentally on feeling can likewise choose love in those dark times.

    On a personal note, I am and have been part of the Anglican Church since 2001. I have, in what NCMI calls dead church, felt and experienced God (as well as chosen to love God) more fully, deeply, and healthily in the liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer than in the hormone, endorphin induced euphoria of Southlands. I would also like to comment on why I do not publish my name or email publically. I am in a profession that is hostile to Christians; it would mean losing opportunities to serve Jesus at institutions that severely need it were what I have written here to become publically attached to my name. I would be happy to discuss my experiences with NCMI further and not anonymously with any who would care to write me at my email. I give permission to the administrators to give out my email, but NOT TO PUBLISH IT for the aforementioned reason.

    Further up and further in, For His Glory. In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, One God, world without end. Amen!

    theautumntree

  32. You made some good points there. I checked on the net for more info about
    the issue and found most people will go along with your views
    on this site.

  33. I’ll be as brief as possible. The main problems I’ve observed generally over twenty years have been the following, in no particular order:

    - 70s/80s South African Defense Force leadership style.
    - Heavy and subtle techniques of control & manipulation.
    - Leaderships made up of ‘pick me’ candidates and ‘yes-men’.
    - Immature leaders. (I include myself there when I was younger)
    - Theological in-breeding and theology / doctrine based on motive.
    - Suspicion and criticism of other denominations.
    - Reluctance to let people leave local congregations.
    - Emphasis on legalistic financial giving.
    - The threat of Old Covenant curses for lack of compliance.
    - The belief that Elders are untouchable and unquestionable.
    - ‘Served’ rather than ‘servant’ leaders.

    It’s a pity as this wasn’t what the founders had in mind and Dudley Daniel regularly spoke out against these types of things. Immature local leadership is probably largely at the root of all of this in my opinion.

    For the last ten years, my family have been happily re-homed in a genuinely free church preaching the Gospel and nothing more.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 29 other followers

%d bloggers like this: